64 replies to this topic

[Den]

That is all well and good, but the point is that 1,000,000 years ago, who knows what happened? I guess it could be argued to a certain degree that all of todays recognized species are some sort of hybrid to an extent.

Hi Kev

You make comparitive statements, but I fail to see what your point is? Are you suggesting the PCS should change its policy on hybrids? and lift the ban on all of them?

You may have me wrong and you may also be surprised, personally I dont have a problem with hybrids, in fact I like alot of them. But I do have a problem when hybrid fish are sold and marketed under a false pretence and being called "line bred" allowing them to gain popularity over the natural forms under a false premise, which is what has happened with these man made discus.

I do have a big problem with hobbiests being misinformed and lied to by hybrid discus sellers, I do have a big problem with a massive industry that produces hybrid fish which is threatening the genetic diverity of a species group.

I do have a problem with people contravening the rules set by the PCS and I'm sure the committee and most of my fellow hobbiests share my concerns on this.

PS Kev did I notice correctly you have at least 2 user names?

Cheers
Den

[Donna]

Hi Den,

I have been following this thread with interest. The four questions you are posing below really have helped me to clarify what is being discussed here. I did try and analyse the discourse earlier and did pull out some of these questions. I am keen to see this resolved, if indeed, it can be resolved.

What are man made discus? Can we even answer this one?
I think this is the crux of the discussion. It needs to be defined correctly ie: If an animal is of the same genus is crossed with an animal with a different species name then it is considered a hybrid and should be named as such eg animalus oneus x animalus twous = hybrid
(note well: I am not saying this is the definition, just a possibility)


Are man made discus a threat to natural forms of discus in the hobby and in the wild? I would say yes in the hobby, maybe no in the wild. If they are a threat, in the wild, then they are able to compete for the same resources which makes them a superior organism and nothing much you can do about this if they have been released.

Do these man made discus contravene the rules and standards of the PCS?
Definitely, I don't think you would get an argument on this point. You might get an argument on whether or not this should be the case. This is where the definition will come in handy so that you can without reasonable doubt let people know what a hybrid is.

What is the most responsible way for the PCS(us) to deal with man made discus?
By promoting the wild discus and its "uncompromised" relatives. By informing people about the wild choices and making sure they have a high profile on the website. Maybe even preventing the sale of fry in the classified if they contravene the rules. Its not up to me, I am not on the committee, indeed, I am not even a member.

I think these questions have all been answered in these recent discus threads, the matter is wether we now act to save and protect natural forms of discus.I don't think they have been answered at all with clear evidence.

I will watch with interest to see what happens with this one if it is followed up by the PCS committee.

Regards,

Donna

[kevy73]

Only 1 user name here... Just lots of people called Kev on the boards...

No I don't think that the society should be changing it's policy.

If people want a forum to discuss hybrids, there is a least 1 that I know of that actively promotes hybridisation - to the point where they have a Hybrid of the month competition. No I am not a member, I just happened upon it whilst googling any evidence that A.heckelii might be a hybrid!

I am not sure what my point is. in no way shape or form do I want hybrids in the sense of Dog x Cat to be become the norm. I think it is repulsive for the hobby. Thankfully nature lets us know this is not on and 99% of the time either kills off the hybrid naturally or makes it so that it can't reproduce.

I don't know what the answer is, but I do know that I am not big enough to try and force a club to make a decision 1 way or the other.

Ps, just imagine how cool Heckelii would look bred with a discus - the colours would be amazing!

[Tucunare]

i get what your saying kev and it still gets back to my orriginal point.
picture this
100years ago discus A was swimming up the Xingu, it met Discus B (totally different species), they got it on (isert porn music here), next thing you know a week or so later popped out 200 Discus C (which are now a Natural Hybrid), 50 years go by and Discus C has mated together fixed the strain and is thriving in a new location due to it being swept away with the seasonal amazon floods. 25 years later Joe fish catcher finds a school of 1000 scoops em up and takes them to a scientist who says righto this will be called Discus C and classifys it as such due to it being different to Discus A and B which were found 75 years earlier, but because of this time period these Discus C have created huge numbers taken up a spot in the river and done well unbeknown to everyone that 75 years earlier they were a hybrid themselves.
forward to present date and discussion, Discus C has now been classified over 25 years and in existance for 100, is this what could have happened to 99% of the fish we recignise today????
evolution baby

[FishGal]

Thanks Steve, everything you just said is what I've been thinking but for some reason been unable to put into clear words! LOL

[kevy73]

That is exactly what I am getting at Steve...

But I do also see the difference between evolution and breeders trying to make more attractive fish....

Maybe the answer is somewhere in the middle... if the breeder breeds an ugly fish, it is banned, pretty and looks like a discus, then it can stay!

The forum is stuck and between some very valid beliefs. One one hand, you have valuable members like Den, who raise valuable points, but as I have said and Steve has made more eloquent, how can we be sure than any fish we buy today are not, or at one point were not hybrids? We can't. Simple.

I also want to bring up my original point in all this and that is that promoting the wild strains if discus is a great idea. If I could have gotten some and afforded some wild caught greens, they would be in my tank now. But and it is a big but, if the breeders can get all these fancy colours and if the wild looking ones become more popular, all you will do is force the breeders to line breed until they get something that looks like the genuine article, but in fact is not. Which in my opinion is more dangerous than the fancy coloured ones. At least we know they are line bred.

Ban fish that are crossed between genus' - definately. Ban line bred discus - who knows.

[Scat]

Hi Den

I currently own 4 discus books including one on wild caught discus, plus my own research to learn more about these fish and nowhere does it say that wild caughts are just as easy to keep if not easier, in fact its the opposite that i read all the time in they are a much more advanced fish to keep successfully.

That being said at the meeting tommorow night after the interval we have a open discussion section where anything can be raised and welcome all that feel passionate about this topic to come along and discuss this in person

Cheers
Craig

[Fish Antics]

What are man made discus? Any Discus bed by hobbyist within the confines of their unnatural habitat thee aquarium. Specifically the aquarium bred strains to enhance both colour and shape. Some maybe line bred within a specific species others possibly interbred between species.

Are man made discus a threat to natural forms of discus in the hobby and in the wild? In the hobby; Only if specifically bred between each other and sold as Wild. In The Wild; No, Aquarium strains are not released back into the wild and if the unlikely event the would most likely not survive.
Do these man made discus contravene the rules and standards of the PCS? The Rule of the PCS are specific, the club only recognises the wild strains, not the Aquarium strains. There is still ongoing research into the DNA lines of Discus. To draw definite conclusions at such an early stage is unwise. It would be extremely difficult to determine specific lines of Discus offered for sale.
What is the most responsible way for the PCS(us) to deal with man made discus? The current club rules are the most responsible method to deal with the species of Discus, only recognising the wild forms, but allowing the ongoing selling of aquariums strains to those people who wish to enjoy them.
I think these questions have all been answered in these recent discus threads, the matter is whether we now act to save and protect natural forms of discus.I agree with Donna, I don't think they have been answered at all with clear evidence. You have obviously made up your mind from the bit of research you have done, which I don’t think anyone will make you change. From the topic you have open it up for discussion and will hopefully encourage people to do their own research to make up their own mind. This I am sure was your intention judging from a number of your other posts.

Tony

[Den]

Are man made discus a threat to natural forms of discus in the hobby and in the wild? In the hobby; Only if specifically bred between each other and sold as Wild. In The Wild; No, Aquarium strains are not released back into the wild and if the unlikely event the would most likely not survive.

Sorry Tony I think these points can be proven wrong.

I currently own 4 discus books including one on wild caught discus, plus my own research to learn more about these fish and nowhere does it say that wild caughts are just as easy to keep if not easier, in fact its the opposite that i read all the time in they are a much more advanced fish to keep successfully.

Hi Craig

Be careful, alot of stuff written and opinions of discus being hard to keep are plagurised from times when fish keeping practices, filters and equipment were inadequate, Im no hand on expert with discus keeping, so the opinions I expressed were from articles written by professional cichlid keepers, I provided references to those articles in another post, thats all I can really tell you.

I think Terry got a batch of wild caughts perhaps he can tell us what he's found them to be like?

Cheers
Den

[Scat]

Hi Den,

3 out of 4 of my books have been written in the last 5 years and one of those have been written by Bernd Degen on the wild caughts, plus have read much discussions on them on large discus sites also.

Cheers
Craig

[Brett]

Wow, if this is the level of passion that PCS members have, I will have to attend more meetings.

I do not have an opinion on the discussion, but much of the debate seems to be around the definition of a "hybrid", when I think the issue really should be the definition of a "species".

Most people tend to think of a species as a static entity, set in stone and unchanging. I prefer to think of them as being in a constant state of flux, gradually morphing over long periods of time. This creates nightmares for Taxonomists, that have to deal with strict definitions. It also means that closely related fish can be either "split", into multiple species, or "clumped", into a single species.

Good Luck to the Committee sorting this one out

Cheers

Brett

[Donna]

Hi Brett,

I agree with you that the only constant is change.

The idea also that evolution takes a long time is refuted by the resistance that lice build up to chemicals over very short periods of time Evolution in action!

I am not sure that taxonomists have trouble classifying species though so much because they are changing, or if it is because they find out more about them and then need to reclassify. This happens a lot at the genus level and seems to happen all the time in the cichlid world. Even in the short time I have been studying them I have noted some fish have had name changes and have been reclassified.

I am not sure the discussion really rested on a definition of hybrid but more on proof that the use of the term hybrid in the case of discus was the correct terminology. A lot of what I got from the argument and the suggested readings was that there was artificial selection going on as well which is really not that remarkable.

Still, I am in no doubt at all that whatever you want to call it, the discus has been exploited purely for economic reasons, and they are definitely not alone in the ornamental fish world.

I wish I was a fly on the wall at the PCS meeting tonight

Regards,

Donna

[golden_dase]

I wish I was a fly on the wall at the PCS meeting tonight

Me too!!! LOL!

[fourdapostle]

You didn't miss anything none of those who were interested in the subject came so it never rated a mentioned...

[Cicolid]

You didn't miss anything none of those who were interested in the subject came so it never rated a mentioned...

True, you didn't miss anything regarding Discus.
However, those who did not attend missed a very good, light hearted talk & demonstration on cutting glass & making a small tank. Mark has been making tanks for years & made it look very easy, he also gave us some good tips on cutting glass, which is not as easy as it looks as Dazza proved.

BTW, There was a fly on the wall, but I swatted it.

Col

[domamy]

hi all,
we found this forum while having a look around for more info. they seem to share the view that discus are a hybrid...
www.forum.simplydiscus.com look under discus discussion.
its worth a look, and its a great site too!
cheers

[Donna]

Ohhhh, that's a shame. Some of these issues aren't restricted to discus though and impact on the entire ornamental fish industry.....never mind. At least the fly was interested.

[Fish Antics]

The meeting gives the people at the meeting the opertunity to raise any of their questions or concerns. The subject of discus didn't come up but one the other discussions that Mark raised which is a major concern to us all is the impending National Ornamental Fish policy. This plans to even further restrict what fish we are allowed to keep. Not only hugly increasing the noxious list but also only allowing those fish on the allowable list being allowed to be sold or moved between states. For those who think it is still far away from happening, it has begun. So as not to Hijack this discussion I will start a new post for this including a link to the relevant proposal.

Tony

[Scat]

I posted a link to this discussion to get opinions from experienced discus keepers also.

http://forum.simplyd...9763#post469763

Cheers
Craig

[Sazabi]

I posted a link to this discussion to get opinions from experienced discus keepers also.

http://forum.simplyd...9763#post469763

Cheers
Craig

Kinda scary going in there with their knowledge and all. Sort of blows you away.


Humbling feeling is what I get