16 replies to this topic

[Michaeal-959]

Going through a 2.6kg bottle of co2 in like roughly a month on a 300l. Running with a ph controller, internal reactor on a eheim 1200l/h. Don't think I should be going through so much? Have gone over the system when it's running with water and couldn't find a leak.

Any advice would be great.
If your located near hillarys and feel generous your welcome to come around and help and talk some fish stuff.

[deliriouz]

Personally I'd forget about the ph meter. I do own two Tunze ph controllers but they are back in the box for the same reasons you have just pointed out.  Use a bubble counter and drop checker to adjust dose and run a solenoid with a timer to turn CO2 off when the lights go off.

[Michaeal-959]

Didn't hear of this problem until now D: so I don't have leaks or anything like that it's just on for too long?

[Westie]

What's the ph of the water, and what have you set the controller too?

[Mr_docfish]

Ph controllers keep the water more stable - if one has an issue with the controllers, then that is either an issue with a bad/worn probe or an issue with understanding how they can be used to their best value... Too many people are buying controllers online or from some shops without getting advice how best to use them. (Jason knows)
If you feel that the useage of CO2 is high for the volume/plant desity of the tank and there are no leaks, then check two things....
Is the KH between 3-4deg KH (~55-70ppm)?
Is the controller set to a reasonable pH (7.0 - 6.5)?
Trying to reduce the pH too much will result in needing too much CO2 to do so.

Best thing to do at this point, is to get a jar of water from your tank and leave it open for 24hours (allowing excess CO2 to leave the water in the jar - law if partial pressures) and the test the pH of that jar of water (use the pH controller probe to get a more accurate reading - assuming it is callebtrated correctly).
Then adjust the pH set point on the controller to approx 0.5pH less than the base pH of the jar of water..... Assuming again that the KH is less than 6 and above 3 deg KH,
Dropping the pH by only 0.5pH will add sufficient CO2 to prevent a carbon defficiency.

After doing this, see how long the CO2 bottle lasts - if it is still the same, then you have a leak still....
If this is the case, bring the bottle and regulator into Aquotix for me to test out and source the leak (and try to fix it)... Best to call the shop first on 94551411 and see if Oliver is in on that day)
It's a bit of effort, and most still don't understand the reasons behind it, but if you want to use the pH controller correctly, this is an easy way to set it up right without understanding why....
Oh, and get yourself a proble cleaning and a probe storage solution - google them up if you want to know what they do.... It helps to keep the probe in the best condition and keep it running for longer....a cause of half the problems with some controllers...

Edited by Mr_docfish, 11 November 2014 - 11:15 PM.

[MattyB]

keep the ph controller, there is no reason for it to use more than it should, the controller is there to switch the co2 off if the ph gets too low, without it your co2 injection system might keep pumping co2 and make your ph crash down to 4 without you even knowing, think of it as a safe guard. with most ph controllers you should get a bottle of stuff that is a ph of 7 so you can recalibrate it. do you have a bubble counter? there a great way to know exactly how much co2 is going into the tank. for my 850L tank I was doing 4bps with a ph of 6.5. I have a 6kg bottle and it lasts me 1 year and 2 months.

 

Another thing you have to look at is do you have much air going into the tank, eg air stones or to much surface movement, if there is access air going into the tank, than the air is removing the co2 as quick as its going in (someone might be able to explain this better than me). need as little surface movement as possible for the co2 to be most effective

[deliriouz]

I have seen awesome planted tanks with and without pH controllers. It is not a critical factor in maintaining a well planted tank. I have tanks with and without pH controllers and have found no difference in plant growth, algae and/or fish loss. I find that I refill my CO2 tanks more frequently with a pH controller. Because of this I now subscribe to Tom Barr's method (guy who invented EI dosing)  - more details of this can be found at http://www.thekrib.c...ontrollers.html ; http://www.aquaflora....php?article=15 and http://www.aquaticpl...-l-even-kh.html

 

In the end, it depends on how much money and time you want to burn buying test kits, probe cleaners, pH probes and calibration solutions.

[MattyB]

delirious, all a ph controller does is reads the ph, and it it gets too low, turns it off, thank once ph raises again it turns the co2 on again. that's it, of course there isn't going to be any more plant growth, and it def is not going to use any extra co2, if anything it would you less in the occasion that the controller needs to turn off the co2 because ph getting to low. its just a fail safe, that's it.

[deliriouz]

matt, i dont pretend to be a CO2 expert but  Tom Barr's has been studying aquatic plants since the 70s. He holds a PhD in this stuff, works in a lab investigating aquatic plants and has access to lab grade inst.ruments

 

 

His take on CO2 usage:

 

 

 

A pH controlled tank has a higher bubble rate than a tank with(out) such a controller. It throttles between the higher rate and shutting off the flow of gas in most set ups utilizing a solinoid. If it didn't do this and have a higher set rate than a non controlled CO2 set up then you'd never have it turning onand off or at least very little. It could never catch up to the pH set rate if you get it too close, so all have been set higher than the normal non-controlled bubble rate(no controller-just setting the needle valve to get a stable pH.). 

 

About the safety aspect:

 

 

 

Controllers provides a false sense of security to newbies using CO2 which is the issue I think is the most problematic, if that's the "agenda", I guess you can call it that. It's more a position than some thought out "agenda" and it's based on experience and consensus. I've had them myself. I had a hard time justifying their use and expense to folks who came to me asking about them. I have done both methods(pH controllers and needle valves alone) and looked at the trade offs. You do not get much for your buck there.
It's like saying SeaChem's PO4 is better because you "want it" compared to DIY KH2PO4. Both are similar in their usage and directions but one cost more and has nice pretty bottle with a little bit of ferts.

 

But like I said, both methods obviously work...one is cheaper than the other. If you got money to burn, then none of this matters. I've spent close to a couple of thousand on CO2 equipment and half of it sits in the cupboards. 

Edited by deliriouz, 12 November 2014 - 07:59 PM.

[Michaeal-959]

is Kh general hardness? if so I have no idea how I would be able to get it below 70. It might be a time thing I guess as my tank is still on the newer side. I do water changes every second day with ro water of about 160L on a 320L tank. the ro water is about 20ppm but the ferts, nitrates and other things in aquarium push it up to around 100ppm.

When I first decided to get into plants I went to someones house to get something and he showed me his 9x3x3 which was full of discus and live plants and he had a Co2 controller and showed me how it works. I thought it seemed rather straight forward so I decided to go down that path instead of having to count bloody bubbles and relying on timers. Since I went for discus I didn't really want to risk co2 spikes so I just thought I would go the Ph controller road as a "safeguard". I have had the tank running for like 2 months now and the plant growth is unreal and im loving my tank.

 

Mr Docfish your advice is perfect and I have done what you said and we will see how it goes. Ill admit I hadn't bothered to actually calibrate the controller as I didn't think it would go out so quickly. Found out it was 0.4 off......

 

Matty B you are one lucky man for it last that long. Got any tips? like seriously whats the secret?

 

HOW DO PEOPLE READ THEIR BUBBLES PER SECOND?????????????????????????????????????

 

All your advice is great, thank you everyone.

Also just a quick thing; in the fish industry its so hard to know what is correct and what isn't because there is a ridiculous amount of false information out there.

Also so many people talk s**t

[sydad]

is Kh general hardness?

 

No kH is NOT general hardness.

General hardness is the total amount of dissolved salts of divalent elements and is referred to as GH. In real terms, as far as aquarists are concerned, the elements involved are calcium and magnesium,

kH is rather misleading term, and does not necessarily have anything to do with hardness, but is actually a measure of alkalinity, and as such is closely related to pH. In most systems a high kH will equate with a high GH, but consider; water containing high levels of bicarbonates of sodium and/or potassium (monovalent elements) will exhibit high kH, but zero GH.

 

Syd.

[MattyB]

I still disagree delirious, the study shows that he set up his ph controller to do most the work, sets the bps very high so the ph controller is constantly working, that's not what I do, I could remove my controller and my ph will be fine, I use mine as a back up, I don't turn up the bps, as I said before, I only use or asa fail safe just in case the co2 did go below What I liked. eg i would set a controller at 6.5/6.7 where controller was set at 6. which means same amount of co2 used with or without a ph controller

[Michaeal-959]

Matty not really sure who your calling delirious here but it's kinda rude. This is a post for help not critisism and stupid remarks. Also what "study" are you referring to?
Matty not really sure who your calling delirious here but it's kinda rude. This is a post for help not critisism and stupid remarks. Also what "study" are you referring to?

[TheTexasCichlidMasacre]

lmao.... im pretty sure he is referring to the username Deleriouz who has also commented on this thread Michael-959 not calling someone delirious as in a rude comment 

[MattyB]

Sorry I was meant to say the persons name but auto correct kept changing it, was not trying to be rude

[kassysimon]

I've been in your situation recently.
I was using a 9kg bottle in 3 weeks!!!

The fault was the method used to dissolve co2.

I know have 100% diffusion and a 9kg bottles last 3 months plus.

As above though, calibrate the probe. Check for leaks with water and soap. And replace the probe yearly without fail.

I swear by my co2 probe setup running through a series reactor (Google it). Absolutely flawless for over 18 months.

I have a ten foot planted tank so rest assured my co2 experiments cost me a lot but could save you heaps.


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[Westie]

Too many people are buying controllers online or from some shops without getting advice how best to use them. (Jason knows).

Yep Jason knows alright ha ha