11 replies to this topic

[smirq]

I've been out of the game for a few years (since my brother dropped his end of the tank going downstairs while moving), but recently got a 4' x 2' x 2' to create a planted community zen tank. My goal in the past was to make my tank as close to a self sufficient micro-environment as possible (after months of tweaking). 

 

I've spent the last week or so reading half the internet to brush up on aquatic intel and plan the journey towards a heavily planted sustainable community tank. I've noticed detailed info on LEDs is hard to find as they are relatively new, so I'll document my experiences in this thread (though any advice is appreciated).

 

Here's a basic rundown of my tank as it is today - 

 

Size - 120cm x 60cm x 60cm (approx 380 - 400 L water)

Filter - Aquatopia Internal 600 (600-1000 L/hr flow rate)

Heating - 300w Jager + 100w Heto (set to 24 degrees, thermometer reads 26 degrees)

Lighting - Red, Blue and White LEDs (more on this later)

Substrate - gravel recovered from 2 foot tank (insufficient quantity)

Plants - None

Decoration - 3 x medium sized pieces of driftwood

Inhabitants - 4 x small bristlenose catfish, 4 x small Pakistani (Yoyo) Loaches, 1 x small Upside Down Catfish (Synodontis nigriventris), 8 x small Neon Tetra, 10 x fully grown Serpae Tetra

 

Test Results (API Master Test Kit)

PH - 7.4 (I'd like to reduce this a bit)

Ammonia - 0.25 ppm (added some Blue Planet Shield post-test)

Nitrite - 0 ppm

Nitrate - 0 ppm

 

Future Inhabitants

+3 Upside Down Catfish (some friends for the reclusive one man wolf pack)

+16 Neon tetra

6 x Khuli Loaches (to agitate the sand substrate I'll be adding)

 

Future Aquascaping

+2 Medium/Large pieces of Mallee Root

40kg White Richgro Play Sand (after washing thoroughly)

Dinosaur Dung (as needed)

A variety of plants based on what's healthy and available next time I go to Vebas or Aquotix (the plants for sale at City Farmers Belmont last week were brown/yellow and not fit for sale).

 

Detail on Lighting

This is still experimental, and I'm doing homework on the science relating to plant growth. At the moment I've rigged up the following parts purchased at Jaycar on a regulated DC 12 volt 500 mA plug -  

 

2 x SPDT Rocker Switches

10 x LED 10mm Red Waterclear 2000mcd

3 x LED 5mm Blue Diffused 350mcd

3 x LED 5mm White Waterclear 4000mcd

 

The LEDs are wired in series behind 120 ohm resistors (220 ohm for the blues) in a way that allows either 5 or 10 reds on, blue and / or white on, blue + 5 red, or white + 5 red. I've been running the white/blue during the day, and the red at night (and darkness while at work). There has been no algal outbreak in the week since I set it up, though it's fairly dim (I'm considering doubling or tripling the white and blue). The fish seem happy so far. I'm intending to hookup a timer to more consistently regulate the hours of light (7 blue/white, 7 red, 10 dark), and looking into the options for dimming/brightening the LEDs at changeover to ease the transition.

 

Here are some baseline photos of the tank in different lighting modes (humble beginnings, but something to compare to once it's well planted).

 

 

 

 

 

 

Does anyone have suggestions or experiences to share regarding the use of LEDs for plant growth?

[Bombshocked]

Regarding Amounts Of Light It Looks A Little Dim (Try For 1-2W Per Gallon) For The Largest Selection Of Plants

 

Also The Red Spectrum Is Beneficial For Plant Growth So If It Is Possible Would Wire It Up So The Red/White/Blue Are On At One Time And Add Some More Whites For Brightness

 

Also I Wouldn't Have A Photo period  Of More Then 10 Hrs, Personally I Believe This Is Asking For Algae

 

Most Store Bought Leds Have A Blue Night Light Setting To Replicate Moonlight.

Edited by Sir_Anubias, 26 July 2013 - 01:29 AM.

[Kleinz]

Just about to start trying out some blues and reds for plants. Will know more in a month or so once I have had time to test.

[Bermont]

i wanna give one of thse setups a go

 

http://www.ebay.com....984.m1423.l2649

 

located in adeilade and cause its a modular system you can add or subtract lights as needed, i like the idea you can cover all the spectrums and they come in any size, so im thinking 2x 6500k white, 1x 10k blue, 1x 10k violet and 1x 14k white. hopefully this covers all the spectrums and it should be the equivilent of a T5HO setup output wise. 

 

Ive been using blue/white LEDs in a few of my tanks for a while now and those tanks do have VERY VERY good growth  for the plants so im hoping a setup like this will give max spectrum and efficiency

[Leigh]

Hi Smirq,

          nice setup. Are you planning to look at your filtration at all? I mention it only because I had problems in my early days relying on internal filters (the small media capacity being the sole means of filtration), especially on such a big tank containing fish with plans for more in the near future.They are great as a secondary filtration means IMO.

 

I like that long peice of wood. Will look great when finished.

[smirq]

Cheers for you comments, I know I've still got a long way to go. I used to have an Eheim canister filter which I'm hoping is still in storage, but I've considered buying one if not, just to remove the internal for better visuals.

 

I did a bit more reading last night about LEDs and plant growth. NASA seems to be experimenting a fair bit, but the dope growers seem to be leading the charge, and more readily share their data. 

It looks like you can't ignore much of the spectrum, with blue and red favored for growth, and far red for flowering.

 

My tank is definitely too dim at the moment (my photos are brighter than reality). I've read about the 1-2 W / Gallon rule, but wasn't sure how to apply it to LEDs, as they offer greater lumens per watt than the alternatives. 

 

 

To make things more complex each LED has a different millicandela (mcd) rating and beam angle, so the above chart is a bit of a generalization. 

 

Using the formula Luminous Flux (lumens)  = Beam angle (steradians) * millicandela (mcd) - 

or cheating via http://www.ohmslawca...d_to_lumens.php to use degrees instead of steradians

 

My 10 x Red LEDs at 2000mcd with a 30 degree beam use 350mW (+72mW for the resistors), and provides 4.28 lumens    (around 10 lumens per watt)

My 3 x White LEDs at 4000mcd with a 30 degree beam use 159mW (+35mW for the resistor), and provides 2.57 lumens     (around 13 lumens per watt)

My 3 x Blue LEDs at 350mcd with a 40 degree beam use 181mW(+40mW for the resistor),  and provides 0.40 lumens         (around 2 lumens per watt)

LCD calculations via http://ledcalc.com/ assuming 12 volt input and desired current of 20 mA

 

Efficiency is definitely a contributing factor. According to http://www.rexgrigg.com/mlt.html a better method than Watts per Gallon is Lux per Square Inch (LSI).

• Low light is 12-17 LSI — you can grow a fair amount of aquarium plants.
• Medium light is 20-25 LSI — you can grow most of the aquarium plants available.
• High light is 28-32 LSI — you can grow all aquarium plants.
• Very high light is over 35 LSI — same as high — all doubts removed.

Imperial measures are annoying, so I'll convert that to lux per square cm (LSCM).

• Low light is 1.86-2.64 LSCM — you can grow a fair amount of aquarium plants.
• Medium light is 3.10-3.88 LSCM — you can grow most of the aquarium plants available.
• High light is 4.34-4.96 LSCM — you can grow all aquarium plants.
• Very high light is over 5.43 LSCM — same as high — all doubts removed.

I'll probably be aiming for 3 lux per square centimeter, hoping reflectance from white sand substrate adds a bit. To convert lumens to lux I've used this calculator (link)

 

So at a distance of around 60 cm between LED and leaf I'm applying 80 lux of red, 48 lux of white and 7.5 lux of blue (total 135.5).

 

Given my tank's footprint is 7200 square cm, my tank is ridiculously dim, 0.63% of what is recommended. Back to the drawing board....

Edited by smirq, 26 July 2013 - 12:47 PM.

[Brett]

A lot of work there to confirm what yours eyes have told you, but I am impressed by the scientific rigor.

Underwater light meter would solve a lot of problems with these sorts of discussions but they are not used by many.

Remember your tank is also receiving indirect light from other sources that are impossible to quantify.

Particularly in small tanks these can make an important contribution.

 

The spectrum story is not as critical as the charts make out, plants can use most wavelengths (just some more efficiently than others)

It is almost always better to opt for more light rather than get bogged down with the minutiae of bulb spectrums.

 

Cheers and good luck with the project

Brett

[smirq]

Cheers, I tend to trust my mind over my senses, if only to confirm the input. I knew it was dim but didn't realize how dim. There is zero indirect light except my monitor which is negligible.

Looks like bringing it up to scratch is going to take some more investment before I add plants. Rather than go for the hundreds of cheap LEDs like I've used so far, I'll have to use the name brand high power ones. To cover all bases I'm going for 14 solderless LEDs (1 each of the green, UV, deep red and blue, 2 x royal blue, 3 x cool white, 5 x red), spreading them out over a Metal PCB for 28 power LEDs, giving me room to add more as time goes on for further experimentation. Always keen to dabble in future tech whenever my paycheck allows it, and if can keep the budget less than the cost of buying pre-made setup it's a bonus.

[Brett]

I appreciate that LEDs are the most efficient to run and generate the least heat, but I doubt they are the most cost effective way to light a 4ft tank.

It may not be relavent to your situation, but for many people moving the tank to a brighter room will significantly improve plant growth and its free

 

 

heavily planted sustainable community tank.

 

I am interested in what you mean by sustainable.

 

Cheers

Brett

[smirq]

Unfortunately I'm limited for options of where to place it due to the size. It was outside, and though that fixes the lighting issue, it's a trade off for a temperature issue.

 

My goal toward a "sustainable" tank is pretty much working towards creating a mini ecosystem that needs minimal human interference. About a decade ago I got fairly close with a tank that took a few of years to get to that stage. Ideally the tank should feed it's self as much as possible, with ample vegetation for the herbivores, and safe areas to allow spawn to grow large enough to keep the omnivores & carnivores fed, and replenish populations as required.

 

Selection of inhabitants is influenced by what they bring to the tank. A common example is the bristlenose cafish, who earns it's keep by keeping algae under control. Other bottom feeders that assist in sanitation duties include Corydoras, who act as vacuum cleaners and also an early warning system for inadequate oxygen levels (if you see them dating to the surface too often). Yoyo Loaches kill off snails, which can otherwise quickly overpopulate and mess up the ecobalance (so do Clown Loaches, but they aren't as hardy). I consider snails a pest, with the exception of Malaysian Trumpet snails who can be effective in agitating sandy substrates to avoid buildup of toxic anaerobic air pockets. Coryadoras or Khuli Loaches are a better option though in my opinion. 

 

Oxygenation of the water is achieved in two ways - plant photosynthesis, and water surface turbulence. The role of plants (beyond looking nice) is essentially converting nitrates, minerals and carbon dioxide into food and oxygen. Plants also provide a visual que regarding the health of the ecosystem - when a vibrant green begins to yellow, it can be a sign of trace mineral imbalance. 

 

Top dwelling schooling fish assist in increasing the surface turbulence (and sub-surface to surface mixing), which is largely responsible for the rate of gaseous diffusion between the water and air (a large surface area helps). I set up my filters to be as silent as possible, with outlets positioned slightly sub-surface, angled toward the bottom of the far corner of the tank to optimize top-bottom water circulation. I prefer not to use air stones.

 

I aim for a diverse as possible array of plants and fish, with a low tolerance for aggression (a little leeway for breeding parents and erratic loach antics). I want my fish to be stress free, so a decent sized school is preferred, though this has to be balanced with population constraints in respect with territorial claims by some species (e.g. catfish). Aquascaping to provide enough cover for all helps too. I prefer sand as a substrate because it allows healthy development of barbels and whiskers (which sharp gravel doesn't), though I'll add some gravel patches for certain plants.

 

Finding a balance takes a long time, tweaking as required. Hopefully the time between tweaks gets longer and eventually you end up with a tank that takes care of itself, so you can go on holiday and know the fish will survive not being fed for a week or two, and only do a water change / filter clean once there's been enough evaporation that it needs a top up anyway. Though it might sound like a lazy ambition, it won't work if you get complacent. You need to be a benevolent God, vigilant and ready to intercede if the world you created requires it (instead of a custodian, tasked with regularly cleaning up the chaos). Work with nature, and it'll work for you.

[Brett]

I guess it is just sermantics, but I would refer to that as a low maintenance tank.

To me "sustainable" implies not feeding the fish or plants at all.

The former is relatively easy, I would regard most of my tanks as low maintenance. A low bioload is the key.

 

Cheers

Brett

[smirq]

The goal is sustainable. The journey is low maintenance with an increasing bioload. You're right, low maintenance is easy, I'd almost rate my tank as that now. I still have to feed them, but the bioload is low because it's early days. It's a slow journey. Keeping the balance while increasing the bioload is a little trickier, but it shouldn't get too high maintenance unless I rush things (I'm sure young fathers agree?). Admittedly, I'm a long way from the goal, but it's a long term plan based on what worked last time, and what I can learn along the way this time.