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Trying To Breed Peppermints


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22 replies to this topic

#1 Aaron789

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 04:56 AM

Hi all, I'm trying to breed my peppermint pair and I can't seem to get it to happen.
I've tried the large water changes with slightly cooler water, I've got guppies in there currently because I heard that can help, I've got drift wood and couple of caves. I think the main problem is the male isn't too keen on hanging around inside the caves, where as the female is always in there. I though it was ment to be the other way around. There are some photos of the tank, and any advice is appreciated.
Thanks Aaron

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Edited by Aaron789, 30 January 2016 - 06:48 AM.


#2 Buccal

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 09:04 AM

Hello Aaron, bigjohnno will give you the best answer on here that you'll get.
But all I will say, as a large breeder of a massive range,,,,, is that if your choice is to breed peps and anything else really, is that, if you try to fast track and go out and by adults mix and matching, then level of success is much much lower,,,,,,, As many people trade in their unwanted non-performers from their matured breeding groups.
Not all are equal as far as being reliable breeders.
Some individuals don't or hardly ever breed, some have small egg clutches, some have huge clutches, some breed like rabbits.

Many, many years ago I spent ages picking up matures and mix matching trying to breed, and only once or twice I got crappy little clutches that just fungused up.
I went to someone's house to buy a group of Paratilapia pollini,,, and they gave me free tiny peps about 1.5cm and about ten of them.
Took some time to grow, but in the last few months they've kicked in and madly actively breeding no different to my high performance breeding bristlenoses.

Effort on superior water conditions with premium foods and starting with a good number of juveniles is always best for supreme breeding configurations.

Edited by Buccal, 30 January 2016 - 09:06 AM.


#3 sandgroper

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 11:34 AM

The problem buying mature fish is that you don't know how old they are.



#4 Frontosaman

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 12:56 PM

Always buy Sub-Adults never ever ever ever ever buy adult Peps or other Plecos, put it this way, if your pair of Peps were breeding say every 8 weeks at a minimum, 50+ fry each time. That's at a bulk price $500 every month or two.

Would you sell them??
I know I wouldn't, in my opinion only buy adults if u personally know the person, or if they are getting out of the hobby.




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#5 dicky7

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 03:03 PM

just looking at the photo of ya  tank I noticed ya had the mouth of the cave towards the front  turn it around and face away from any movement or distraction

 

Always depending on the number of males ya have only 1 cave for each male

 

Just a couple of hints  also NEVER  be inpatient to look into the cave  just leave it alone if they have a batch of eggs and you disturb  them the male might not go back to them



#6 Aaron789

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 03:51 PM

Thanks for the advice, yea I knew it's not always as easy as buying a couple fish n getting them to breed but I'm still hopeful, yea ill try turning the cave to the back of the tank. Yea I've been making sure the water and food quality is good as possible, maybe it wasn't a good idea buying adults but i guess I'll find out. Are peppermints able to be inbred consistently without deformities as you where saying to buy 10 or so from one batch and let them grow out.
Thanks for the help so far I guess I'll have to be patient.

#7 Buccal

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 06:25 PM

What is debated by some,, but Definetely not debatable to me as I know the reality of it.
Is that any type of inbreeding DOES NOT generate or a reason why deformity occurs.
There must actually be a fault in genetics that purely happens as probability,,,, so once the fault occurs it occurs in the same site of the gene coding, this means the two sexes of the same offspring have the fault in the same place that meet up together that produces the deformity.
In nature it happens but the genetic matching is more randomized, though in harem forming species say like frontosa's can replicate deformity much easier,, but what most people don't realize that individuals do swap and change occassionly from one harem to another.

In our tanks the genetics are more prone to be continuations of same lines,,, but this is very good, as the specific traits in fish that we regard as quality is continued and not lost.
So it's important that once deformities start occurring in high percentage in offspring is to not continue the line or bring other lines in to see if the fault is week enough to become canceled out,,, though it's always best to just drop it and go with another line.
If the traits are really great, eg, nice long fins, or nice spots, or bright colors, it's worth a try bring another line in to keep it going.

For every expression in genetic make up is called a ellele, so when the faults meet up on the same ellel of the same bloodline then this is when the fault occurs. :)

#8 bigjohnnofish

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 01:06 AM

one species of b/n is particular prone to deformities and thats orange spot b/n... and it is purely from breeding brother/sister too may times down a family tree... 

 

havent studied in any depth about genetics behind this problem but i do know its about 5 brother/sister breedings that start to create deformities and then it accellerates ffrom there... this is true in b/n and guppies also and prob a fair few other fish too...  firstly you dont know how many brother/sister breedings have occurred in your fish - so its best to err on side of caution and find some b/n that arent closely related which isnt always that easy either.... buying top quality fry is a good sign your not too inbred... check all the fry in the tank to give you a wider perspective of the quality of fry your buying... 

 

back to your problem... as mentioned above - all fish are not going to be prime breeders - just the same as people - many people shouldnt breed and many cannot.....

 

peppermints i would rate harder to breed than L333's and a few other L numbers too.... they are in their breeding prime from 2-5 years of age although will breed at older age but no where near as frequently as younger breeders - same as people really..... 

 

size doesnt always equal age in the way a small fish is young and a big fish is older... this will depend on how fish was raised and grown up....

 

yes its common for people to sell old peppermint breeders when they are over the hill.... 

 

as said above you want to be assured of breeding pepps theres no better way than growing a heap up from fry....

 

we all know water changes help to initiate a spawn but if they dont wanna breed doesnt matter what you do they wont breed....

 

they breed for 2 reasons - one they think they are going to die so reproduce.... two they are extremely happy and conditions are perfect for them to reproduce

dont try the first way as if you get it slightly wrong your fish are dead.....

second way is much better and its just a matter of time as long as you provide perfect water conditions and ample food... add occasional feed of brine shrimp to up their protein intake to help them get into spawning condition....

 

have done 95% water changes in the past and sometimes they breed and sometimes they dont.... keeping water quality as perfect as you can do for an exended amount of time should get them to breed.....

 

but all this is in vain if either parent is infertile :(



#9 Aaron789

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 12:44 PM

Thanks for all the advice everyone,
Yea ill just keep persisting with water changes and quality food, in the last day or so the male is spending a lot more time in the cave, so I guess I'll just need to be patient, how long can peppermints live for anyway? Yea I'm just hoping the pair I have aren't infertile, thanks

#10 sydad

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 07:04 PM

For every expression in genetic make up is called a ellele, so when the faults meet up on the same ellel of the same bloodline then this is when the fault occurs. :)

 

Should be Allele

 

Syd.



#11 Buccal

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 09:50 PM

Yes I know, I realized after,,,, last time I focused on studying it was over two years ago.
All the things I do in life, I'm lucky I can remember most things,,, I jam a lot of stuff in my brain, and I have the sort of brain that back doors information once I overload, rather than losing it short term through the front door.
I've discovered ways to make more stick these days.

#12 Buccal

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 10:06 PM

Actually best info to study the genetic deformity horrors that lie in the Alleles,,,, is scientific studies on dog breeding.
Inbreeding and faults rates are classically similar to fish,, (domestication wise).
It takes all the mystery out of deformities.

#13 Aaron789

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Posted 12 March 2016 - 06:50 PM

Thanks for the advice everyone,
No luck as of yet, although I have re arranged the tank a bit and upped my filtration and amount of drift wood and plants, they seem happier tho, also bought a young female, yea not the best idea but I thought it was worth a go, still having the problem of the main female blocking the cave from the male, I had 2 caves in there a larger square one and he didn't seem to like the cave much but the new female does seem to follow him around quite a bit, I have been considering moving the original female out of the tank into another one or moving a common male bn in in the hope of the pep getting a little more testosterone going and get the desire to breed.
Also I have been considering changing the water from tap to rainwater hoping that it might help having softer lower ph water, but I'm not sure how difficult it will be to do because i don't kill them with a spike of some kind,
Any advice is always appreciated
Thanks AaronAttached File  image.jpeg   108.6KB   5 downloads

Edited by Aaron789, 12 March 2016 - 06:51 PM.


#14 bigjohnnofish

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 12:00 AM

rain water and almond leaves are really old wives tales in my opinion.... had peps breeding in ph of 7.0-8.0 so ph is not a deciding factor as to what makes them spawn...

used tap water with prime as the water conditioner to breed pretty much everything..... 

people used rain water and or almond leaves and their peps spawned so they put it down to that.. just purely coincidence as the peps were about to breed anyway....

think were the fish lives in the wild and what happens to the water parameters and quality and then you'll be on the right path....



#15 Aaron789

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 07:11 AM

Cheers for the tips, is it unusual though for the female to occupy the cave a block the male from entering, would that mean they aren't a good pair? Also would adding other males or removing that female make any difference do you think?

#16 bigjohnnofish

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 01:06 AM

im thinking what you think is a female is prob a male...... 

 

catch it out and rub top of its nose - soft and squishy = male...... hard and firm = female..... 

 

try this on some common bristlenose if you have a confirmed pair (by fry) till you get the hang of sexing them than apply it to pepps - just the same...



#17 Aaron789

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 06:18 AM

I'm fairly certain it's a female, which is why the behaviour is confusing, the first pic is her the second him and third the latest one i got which is female aswel I think ,
This is why the behaviour is so confusing, maybe the male just isn't up to the task I think,

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#18 bigjohnnofish

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Posted 15 March 2016 - 12:04 AM

for some reason i click on your pics and they come up and a split second later they disappear so i cant see an enlarged pic of your thumbnails....

 

in the first pic judging by how big the fishes rear fanning fins are it looks male.... 

 

second looks to be male and third one looks to be female but is still not really big enough to be 100% certain....

 

all the fish dont look any bigger than 8-10cm....  prob the reason they dont wanna breed just yet.....

 

catch em out and rub top of their noses... more accurate then photos will ever be....


Edited by bigjohnnofish, 15 March 2016 - 12:05 AM.


#19 Aaron789

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Posted 15 March 2016 - 09:58 AM

Yea I'm fairly certain that the first is a female using the nose method, and seems to have quite a chunky body compared to the male and also has only two bristles on the front of the mouth. Is it possible for a female to be more dominant than a male? Cheers for all the help so far as well

#20 bigjohnnofish

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Posted 16 March 2016 - 01:03 AM

bristles out front on their lips mean nothing - bristles on top of the nose = male..... chunky is what i'd refer to a peppermint male as they are bigger and more robust than the female.... those rear fanning fins are a good indicator of being male... as thats what they use while incubating the eggs....

 

have we measured the fish with a ruler ??? they dont look big enough from the pics.... all this could be for nothing as they arent mature/ready to breed yet...






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