21 replies to this topic

[newfish]

Morning All
I would really appreciate some advice to help save my sick discus.
Brief background: 320L tank, good filtration. Parameters fine, temp 29, pH 7.5. 25% water change twice per week. 2 adult discus and 8 juveniles varying in size from 5 to 10 cm. All discus seem happy and healthy bar one. I have added two small "grand flora" 5cm discus in the past month. One is confident and looks great. The other doesn't eat, hides, remains dark brown and has progressively become thinner.

My treatment sequence to date: i) try to feed seperately from main group (no joy)
ii) isolate in fry saver within main tank, try to entice eating with live worms (no luck with eating)
iii) isolate in hospital tank (28 degrees, same water as main tank), treat with Aquarium Science "Aqua Worm" (Praziquantel) This was two days ago. Tried live and frozen worms too entice eating this morning, little discus lives but still won't eat.
I am very concerned the discus will die. I am relatively new to the hobby and am keen to draw on the wealth of experience of forum members. Any suggestions on how to improve this situation would be genuinely appreciated.

Erica

[dazzabozza]

Hi Erica

I'm guessin u were the lady talking to Krystal @ Aquotix on Thursday?? I was nearby and over-heard your dicussion about discus, meds etc.

Does the sick discus inspect the food or totally ignores it? If it is inspecting then perhaps a diff food such as brine or mysis shrimp.

If it's unhappy then it'll prob be a mission getting its health back up to speed. Tank relocations may upset it further and increase the fasting time period.

If it is parasitic worm related it'll prob take a bit longer than 2 days for the meds to take effect and show some benefit.

My experience with these fish is very minimal. Hopefully someone else will provide some extra input soon

Dazza

[newfish]

Hi Dazza
Cheers for taking the time to help out with the discus problem. I was the one having a bit of a sook about my sick fish on Thursday. Sadly, the little discus is dead. It had ignored all manner of food even to the point where food would settle on or around it. It may have been made more stressed through relocation to the hospital tank. I had delayed the move as a last resort because the discus are so easily "upset". Maybe I left worming it too late? Maybe it wasn't worms? Unfortunately, I don't have the experience to draw on to make a decent conclusion about what I "should" have done. I still feel responsible for the fish (dead one and live ones)and hope I can keep the rest of them happy and healthy. Fingers crossed it is an isolated incident.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend and thanks again
Erica

[Mr_docfish]

I can say that this is not your fault at all. I am impressed that you have done everything right, even down to describing the conditions of your tank in your first post, a very commendable effort.
Discus are very frustrating, especially for those that are new to them. Unfortunately they can be very fragile at a young age, and as Dazza mentioned, transport , relocations and handling can make them go backwards very quickly. You will quickly find that you will always have one smaller, weaker individual discus in your tank for no obvious reason. I consider it just a case of mental weakness in some individuals, especially if larger, more robust discus are in the same tank with them. Sort of like an inferiority complex. I cannot prove this, but everyone I talk to that keeps or has kept discus, almost always has this scenario in their discus tanks.
Just keep up with what you are doing with the remainder of the discus that you have, and I am sure that you will not have too many more problems in the future with them.
The main thing to look out for now, is to keep an eye on them for slimy white faeces and hole-in-the-head (common problem in new discus additions). If you see this then you will have to treat for this. In which case, talk to Krystal again and mention this and she should be able to help you.

Oliver

[newfish]

Hi Oliver
I appreciate your advice and reassurance regarding the treatment of the sick discus. I am planning to do a bit of a "pre-emptive strike" on the discus tank and treat it for nematodes. Although the other discus seem fine. I did a bit of a "poo-watch" and the discus seem to have "normal" poo. Two tetras from the same community appear to have a small white thread like object surrounded by a clear "cyst" protruding from their bodies. The threads look worm-like but don't protrude from their anus. Perhaps it is Capillaria?? I've caught the tetras (that was fun /- and isolated them in a hospital tank. I thought I would head back to Aquotix and purchase Levimasole to treat them. Would you advise this? I will try to find you or Krystal when I am in the store and ask your advice in the hope of getting all of the fish healthy.

Thank you for your time, effort and expertise
Erica

[Aquotix Aquariums]

I would love to see this on the tetras, does not sound like normal nematodes if not from the anus, but at the same time, I cannot think off the top of my head what it might be, so I would like to be there when you bring them in... I will be off on Tuesday but back on Wednesday onwards.
Hope to see you then sometime.

Oliver

[newfish]

Hi Oliver
The Cardinal Tetras seem surprisingly active considering they are obviously afflicted by something. The "worm" like threads are white, no longer than 5mm and seem to be part of a small growth/cyst. I have little experience with fish disease but have been reading as much as I can find on the problem. They seem more "nematode like" than anything else. I will try to get some photos. I could bring the fish in Wednesday or Thursday afternoon for you to examine. I would really appreciate your advice and am very keen to prevent any more fish health drama.

Cheers
Erica

[Mr_docfish]

Are the 'worms' on the body and/or fins?

I can't find a pic on the web, and my book on diseases is at work and I don't know the name given to this sort of worm-like thing off the top of my head. All I know is that it is not deadly, can be contageous (I have seen it in blue Rams), but will disappear in a few months without any treatment. It is some sort of fungus related thing that often comes in with wild caught fish (like some cardinal tetras). It is nothing to worry about. It can be scraped off if you really feel like stressing the fish out, but it is not worth it.

I will try to remember to look it up some time soon and post up some info and pics.

[newfish]

Hi Oliver
The "worms" are on the body and fins. It would be great if they weren't contagious and the fish would recover...fingers crossed. Thank you again for your time, expertise and patience. hope to see you Wednesday or Thursday.
Erica

[Iamsam]

do they look like anchor worms at all?
s seen here

[newfish]

Hi Sam
I did suspect Anchor worms initially, however the "worms" on the tetras are smaller and do not have the forked end typical of that parasite. I appreciate the time and effort you have taken to help, thanks for that.

I have euthanased the worst affected tetra, it was struggling. It will make the trip from the fridge to Oliver on Wednesday morning. (My poor partner must get sick of finding containers of live worms, a freezer stocked with frozen fish goodies and now a dead fish in the fridge...hope he doesn't think the sandwich bag would make a nice addition to his lunch.)

Thanks again
Erica

[Iamsam]

im not sure if this pages is going to help you or not but i find it is very usefull when trying to id a parasite so i thought i would throw it out anyway Freshwater Parasite Id table

regards
Sam

[newfish]

Hey Sam
The information you attached was very useful, I've saved it for future reference. The "worm" problem doesn't seem to match any of the parasite descriptions exactly. Makes it difficult to know what to do. I will let you know what Oliver comes up with after I annoy him this morning

Thanks again for your help
Erica

[Mr_docfish]

I found it in Dieter Untergassers book from TFH on Fish Diseases called Dermosporidia.
There is very little information on what this is and the life cycle of it, but in general it is not a cause for concern in Aquarium fish and no treatment is known.

Unfortunately I cannot find a photo of this 'thing', but I will try to get one and post it up here one day.... I'll need a Macro lens for my camera.....

[newfish]

A big thanks to the kind people, particularly Oliver, who took the time and effort to offer their assistance with my fish problem. Your help was genuinely appreciated.

Thanks again
Erica

[Brett]

Wow, I googled it and found only 2 hits !!

Must be a seriously uninteresting organism

Is it related to the Sporidians Oliver, I thought most of these were essentially untreatable.

Cheers
Brett


ps Sorry to hear your little discus died Erica

[newfish]

Hi Brett
I was a bit disappointed I couldn't save the little discus. All part of the experience, I guess. I am pretty sure Oliver named the cardinal tetra's disease "dermocystidium", when I discussed this with him earlier. I may be wrong....it certainly wouldn't be the first or last time.

Cheers
Erica

[Mr_docfish]

Sorry Erica, forgot the spelling, but Dermocystidia and Dermosporidia are basically the same thing.... a spore/cyst producing fungi or similar that in freshwater fish causes no major fatalities (unless the cysts are in the gills)..... but they have been recorded in molluscs, like oysters, that can cause problems. (I think from memory, Dermosporidium is the Genus name for some of the marine Dermocystidia that have been described)

Strange that there is very little info on the net....... but if no one puts it up on the net, then it is not there to view.....I'll try to add some pics some time soon if I ever see it again in the wild caught fish in our shipments.

Oliver

[newfish]

Thanks, Oliver. I still have the remaining affected Cardinal Tetra in isolation. I am still a bit scared to put it back with my Discus The "threads" in its fins (one pectoral, one anal) are very clear. I will try to get my act together and take a photo. It might be useful to someone in the future.

Cheers, and thanks again
Erica

[Mr_docfish]

Pics would be great - even better if you can get a macro of it.... I wish I was still in Uni, always had access to dissecting microscopes with camera adaptors.....

Keeping it isolated is a good idea, though I have only seen it spread to other tetras and rams. After a few months, it just disappears.