16 replies to this topic

[Blackcats]

I am trying to get an algae problem under control without resorting to chemicals.
Is there a particular variety of Otocinclus or other type of catfish that would be best at controlling black beard algae in a planted Discus tank kept at 30c.

Cheers :?

Harry

[duck]

Short answer none.
You could try a SAE but you will have to starve your discus as SAE get lazy and will eat the food you feed the discus.
You should be asking why you got BBA.
No doubt someone will come in say otherwise.

[Blackcats]

You should be asking why you got BBA

I inherited it with a set up I bought.

The two large pieces of bogwood that have the problem were thoroughly scrubbed and cleaned before setting up again - but obviously some traces or spores remained.
I have reduced the amount of light the 6x2x2 tank receives from 4x36W/10000k tubes to 8 hours from 12.
I also do regular water changes to control nitrates.
Thought a few catties may help aswell.

Maybe this should be in planted tank forum :idea:

Cheers

Harry

[Mr_docfish]

Check the Phosphates, with BBA, it feeds off the phosphates more than the nitrates. Keep the phosphates near as possible to zero, and the growth of BBA will also be near zero. Once you have control over the BBA, then it is worth while treating it with chemicals, or allowing it to be controlled further with algae eating fish, or die off eventually with age.

Let me know if you need info on controlling Phosphates (PO4)
Oliver

[Blackcats]

Thanks for your replies guys.

Oliver, PM sent regarding Phosphate control.

Cheers,

Harry

[Donna]

I need info on controlling phospates as well.

My tank has black beard. It is getting about 8 hours tube light a day and is in a fairly dark room.

The algae grows mainly on the wood but makes my sword etc look unsightly.

My firemouths are still going strong but thier appetite has not returned.
All else well, but no more spawns, lots of water changes.

Thanks,

Donna

[Noddy65]

If you only have a little then you can squirt some Hydrogen peroxide directly on it with a syringe...it will kill it off. This works well for BBA on hard objects, plants dont like it much though.

Mike

[Mr_docfish]

Ok, I asked Harry for more info on his set up

Tank is 6'x2'x2' - approx 650 ltrs
Was bought as a 2nd hand set up and had been running for about 2 years.
Has been running for 7 months at my place.
The mature external filter was put onto an established tank to keep it going during change over.
External filter - Eheim 2400 ltr/hr
Internal Filter - Aqua One 2000 ltr/hr
Substrate was set up similar to the previous guy as it had been successful for him - bed of Aquasoil from Watergarden World mixed with Eco Complete and covered with a layer of washed white sand.
Lighting - 4x 36W/10000k tubes on for 8 hours
Water changes 20% per week conditioned with "Geo Liquid for Discus".
"Aquarium Science" plant food also added.

Water parameters:

NO2 - 0 mg/l using API test strips
NO3 - < 20 mg/l using API test strips

NO2 - <0.3 mg/l using Tetra test kit
NH3 - 0 mg/l using Tetra test kit

pH - 7 using Sera test kit
kH - 2 using Sera test kit
GH - 5 ? using Sera test kit ( difficult to see colour change)

Tank inhabitants:
8 x Large adult Discus
2 x Medium Discus
2 x Medium Albino Bristlenose
Amazon Swords
Anubias
Vallis

Food :
am - Pro Choice Discus Flake
pm - Tetra Colour Bits
Once per week - frozen bloodworm/brineshrimp

I also have a problem with the plants giving good vigorous growth for a couple of weeks, then the leaves waste away and leave a brown skeleton, then the cycle continually repeats itself.

All right, in most cases, I have found that BBA (Black Brush Algae) grows faster in tanks with phosphate levels, the higher the level, the faster the growth.
It does have to be introduced to start with, which is inevitable as most people have it in their tanks, even the best of plant growers, and no doubt, the commercial sector (LFS and OLS) cop it from all suppliers. Quarantining and removing only new growth from plants to transfer them into your display tanks, and buying new materials, is the only way of avoiding it.
A phosphate test kit is one that I always recommend people to get when they have BBA problems.
Levels above 2mg/l (same as 2ppm) can be reduced economically by water changing regularly and/or adding Sera Phosvec liquid. When using Phosvec, you will need a KH of 3-4 (60-80ppm) or higher.
Levels under 2mg/l can be reduced by adding phosphate absorption resins and such like API Phoszorb or Aquamedic Antiphos (the latter being the most efficient for the price according to the amount of phosphate it can absorb).
Phosphates can linger in the substrate, often an accumulation over time, and then re-dissolve into the water when the water chemistry changes. For this reason I would recommend using Antiphos in the cannister filter in older tanks, or in tanks where there is an addition of phosphates in the substrate. (I use fertilizer tablets that contain phosphate for the tiger lotus, so when I remove one of the plants, some phosphate comes in contact with the water, so I like to remove it as quick as possible). If you have used aquasoil from water garden world (I was told it contained phosphates, I have to ask again to be sure of this....but lets assume it does for the purpose of covering all bases) then I would do the same and have a filter bag with antiphos or phosvec in the filter. Even though you have done the right thing by covering the soil with washed white sand (quartz), some phosphates can come in contact with the water when you up-root any plants.
Sources of phosphates can be from some pH or Discus Buffers (from memory, Geo-liquid is ok, but I will test it again to remind myself), some fertilizers (I have not tried Aquarium Science brand, but I doubt it would, still worth testing though to be sure) and most foods. Some foods are worse than others, regardless of brand or price, it is to do with the ingredients. Frozen blood worm is a big one if you just allow it to defrost by itself in the tank, the water they use to pack the worms (midge larvae from Duck ponds) is very high in Phosphates (from the duck poo in the pond water). I would recommend to rinse it (defrosting it at the same time) under a cold tap in a small fine mesh net first before feeding it out. You can't help the phosphates in the other commercial foods, so the Antiphos or phosvec in the filter will save you here.
More faster growing plants like your vallis will also help in utilizing the phosphates, though they as well as the swords and anubias, will find enough through the substrate. Think about trying fast growing stem plants like Hygrophilias and ambulia, which will take more nutrients through the leaves.
Your nitrates are good, keep it between 5 and 10mg/l, this will ensure that you don't get Blue green algae (ie: nitrates must be higher then phosphates) and the plants like it this way.

When you have the phosphates under control, you can decide to remove the excess BBA you can see or just ignore it, and it will disappear in time.
Products like peroxide (see noddy's post above) or Seachem Flourish Excel and API Algaefix (both used in higher doses) can burn BBA off...but be careful, it can affect your plants and fish.
I personally have not found a fish that will eat it unless you starve it...hard to do when you are trying to feed slow feeding fish like discus.

In regards to the old leaves browning off and the plants growing in spurts...it sounds like you have a trace element deficiency, one that plants can reclaim from old leaves and transfer to the new ones. I am assuming here that this is to do with the sword plants. I find this strange considering the substrate you have, but after 7 months, it is possible, though slim, that some trace elements have been exhausted.
Can I recommend API Plant food (it is a complete trace fertilizer that I personally use, (ignore what the label says about its contents, it has more that what it says, it is a labelling thing for the American shelves)) and divide the weekly dose into daily doses and dose daily rather than weekly. Try half the dose rate to start with and increase it as the plants show signs of doing well. I use an Iron test kit (Sera) to check the iron levels, this gives me a guide as to how the plants are utilizing the fertilizer in general. I try to keep the iron levels at about 0.5mg/l or at least above 0.1mg/l. Less is more, that is, too much can be as bad as too little, so I add a bit more than too little and increase the dose rate to suit the number of plants at the time. Another good brand that I have used for most of my years is the Sera Florena. Most other fancy brands are very good, but pricey and need more than one bottle to add all the required minerals, too fiddly for me, but great for those that want to have ultimate control.
Maybe Noddy65 or Graeme or someone more into the plant game will be able to shed some light on which mineral deficiency causes browning off, I have to do some reading on this one to refresh my lagging memory (I'm blaming the bourbon for the lack of it).

Sorry for the big one, I tried to add as much detail as I could remember to ensure you have all the options and make the right decision that will work for you without spending lots of money trying different cures - Prevention is the best cure, and getting rid of the cause is the second.

Try these ideas out and post back in a few weeks to let me know how the plants are doing, and whether the BBA is still growing at the same rate on the new leaves or not.

HTH
Oliver

[Blackcats]

Thanks Oliver for taking the time to consider this problem and giving a very detailed reply.
I will get myself a Phosphate test kit and try out some of those products recommended.
I am a bit reluctant to try the chemical treatment (peroxide) in case it affects the fish that are healthy and doing very well.
Its only the BBA and plant browning that is a concern.
I will let you know how it goes in a few weeks.

Thanks again,

Harry

[Donna]

Thanks again Oliver for the comprehensive reply. BBA growth has stabilised in my tank but it certainly has not stopped. I will try your suggestions.

Thanks,

Donna

[duck]

Try the method that noddy has suggested if it's on wood heater ect not plants.Or take whatever it has grown on the scrub it with a little bleach and water.
Then i would add a little trace like seachem flourish.
20% WC for Discus is not enough IMO try for 50%.
BBA is closely associated with inconsistant levels of CO2,this does not mean that you have to add CO2 .Do have an airstone running?

This one is to dispell the PO4 myth take note of Tom Barr post very respected in planted tank circles.

http://www.plantedta...water-what.html

This one for your Algae problem it should give you alot of answers
http://www.plantedta...-tank-long.html

[Mr_docfish]

BBA is closely associated with inconsistant levels of CO2,this does not mean that you have to add CO2 .....
This one is to dispell the PO4 myth

Tom Barr has the equipment to maintain the CO2 at 20-25 constantly (hard to do without a controlled system running), which can be done with the right equipment here too, but without it, and if you have BBA in your tank already (some are fortunate to keep it out), the growth of BBA will be in correlation to the amount of Phosphates. 15 years ago, there was never a problem in WA with BBA, this is only a recent problem (fish keepers with it and plant growers with it, spreading it around), this is why I mentioned that it has to be introduced.
There is a lot of information on the control of BBA including increasing the CO2 and adding Excel, blackcats did not have CO2, so I did not go there.
I have had the opportunity to test a lot of peoples water when they come in with BBA problems, and I have seen this correlation time and time again. ALso I have proven the nitrate to phosphate ratios in tanks with blue green algae problems. In tanks like Tom Barrs, which are very stable, blue green algae will not thrive, regardless of the ratio, as he says.

Tom Barr is right in his method of plant keeping, but in general, the majority of people keeping aquariums have a different system and therefore require different methods, unless they wish to spend a lot of money to maintain a more stable system.

Each to his own, everyone has a different opinion, which depends on individual circumstances.

I am trying to get an algae problem under control without resorting to chemicals.

I thought trying to keep phosphates down was easier and cheaper than adding CO2. Wait and see what happens, see if my theory works or not.

Cheers,
Oliver

[Blackcats]

Hi Guys

Oliver - did a Phosphate (PO4) test today and the reading was greater than the scale on the chart i.e. > 10 mg/l.
I then did a 35% water change and removed any dead or browning leaves.
Will work through your other suggestions asap.

Duck - no airstone running on this tank only a diffuser on internal filter and confirm no CO2 addition.
I will check out those links when I have time later tonight.

Cheers

Harry

[Brett]

Think Oliver has just about covered it.

Couple of points, a lot of local ground water has increased phosphates so you need to be aware of this if you are using ground water.

On the browning off issue, I wondered about Potassium (K) which is a mobile nutrient as Oliver suggested. It is a macronutrient that can be depleted if your plants are growing well. Typically starts as pinpricks of yellow on the leaves that get larger and then the old leaves die off. New growth is not affected.

Cheers
Brett

[aqua86]

I am trying to get an algae problem under control without resorting to chemicals.
Is there a particular variety of Otocinclus or other type of catfish that would be best at controlling black beard algae in a planted Discus tank kept at 30c.

Cheers :?

Harry

i had a really bad run of black beard algae, i removed as much as possible by hand from all plants and equipment, carried out a 50-60% water change, and double dosed flourish excel, and pick up some siamese flying fox/ algae eater, must be the ones where the black strip gos all the way through the tail, from what i am aware they are the only fish to eat it, within a matter of days u will see the remaining beard algae dieing off going really frail and red 3-4 days later to a week your tank will be free of all black beard algae.

[Blackcats]

For those that are interested ........... an update.
I continued with the larger water changes and after a few weeks the Phosphate readings dropped to approx 1mg/l then steadied at this value.
I then tested the tap water used for changes and noted that this was the same value so it was probably not going to reduce any further.
After a trip to see Oliver at Aquotix I placed some Aquamedic Antiphos resin in the canister filter. Two weeks later and the reading is down to approx 0.5 mg/l.
While the BBA problem is still there it is certainly under control. Its growth has stopped and I have been picking it off by hand. Most of the thick dense growth has been removed leaving just a lot of stubble.
I am still not game enough to dose with chemicals or scrub wood with bleach in case the Discus are affected.
I have changed to API plant food as recommended and the plants are picking up.
There is still a bit of browning on the leaves of the Swords and Anubias but the new growth is very vibrant and green.
The Vallis has gone crazy and its growth is very vigorous and is starting to cover the water surface so much that it will need to be trimmed back.
Surprisingly the Iron reading was <0.1 mg/l - I tested it again to make sure.
I have noticed some other changes - there is some green algae appearing on the glass and substrate that is in direct light and small amounts of brown algae in the more shaded areas.
The pH has also increased slightly to 7.6
I have reduced the duration of light to 6 hours and added some pH down.
I think it is now at the point where I can introduce some small algae eating catfish to hopefuly complete the job.
Thanks again to Oliver for has assistance and guidance.

Cheers

Harry

[Mr_docfish]

Thanks Harry,

A bit of info on the green algae growing on the glass:
as the plants start to take off again, they will be stripping the nitrates from the water and you will find that this low nitrate level (less than 5ppm) will for some reason encourage this green algae growth (and this might also explain the increase in pH, as the nitric acid decreases with the decreasing nitrate level). Adding KNO₃ to the tank or other nitrogen based fert (or add more food for the fish) will help in controlling that (KNO₃ will also help with the K deficiency).
I always use the green algae growth on the glass of my tank as a quick indicator for low NO₃. When I get that hard green spot algae, then I know I have near on 0ppm NO₃, and I kick myself for not noticing earlier (can't get rid of the green spots on the leaves). When my tank is overstocked with plants between prunings, I notice that I have to increase the daily addition of API Leaf Zone fert to cope with the Iron being sucked up too quickly (I use an Eheim liquid doser).
If the plants are doing well and the NO₃ is being kept up to 10-15ppm, then you should remove the AntiPhos. Plants still need the PO₄. But if the PO₄ increases too much between water changes (from the addition of foods) then you might have to put it back in, or just a small amount to keep some sort of control. If you had CO₂ injection, then you would not have to worry as much about 1ppm of PO₄ and the pH will also be held down. Also make sure your pH down product is PO₄ free.

I am glad you have found this a reasonable way of controlling BBA without chemical treatment... some have not believed me that Phosphates are a major factor for BBA growth, I hope your experiences here will help those that wish to achieve the same result without the chemical control too.

Cheers Harry,
Oliver