26 replies to this topic

[mdk54]

Hi Guys,

First time posting on here, long time reading the articles though.

Hopefully someone can give me some advice on my current issue. Now I have kept fish for probably the last 8-10 years, but the biggest tank I have ever had was a 3ft-er. So this one, along with canister filters is kind of new for me.
Basically, I set up a 4x2x2 tank about 2 months ago. I bought it off ebay, and it was only 12months old, however it was a bit dirty (agae) so I made sure to give it a good clean with hot water before I even started setting it up. I bought about 80kg's worth of black gravel for it from the LFS, along with a piece of driftwood. I hose and sifted the gravel, until I was satisifed it was clean, and soaked the driftwood for two days, until it stopped changing the colour of the water. Then I picked myself up some black granite-like rock from near the local river (After a friend told me that was what he had been using in his tank for ages). I also made sure to hose and scrub this well. After setting all this up to my liking, I filled the tank with water, and set up the canister filter that came with it, and let it cycle for a few days. Now when the water cleared, I tested the PH, checked the temp, and was happy enough, to put my fish that had previously resided in a 65L Aqua One job, into the new home. At this time, I also added a peice of ceramic pipe (washed) for them to hide in. Basically everything was ok for about the first ~3 weeks, and so I decided to add a few more fish. at the same time I decided to remove the pipe, and replace it with a ceramic pot (also washed).
Now here things started to go wrong, within about a week or so, fish started to beahve strangely. Some stopped eating, and started gasping occassionally. I thought there may have been some sort of infection, so I made sure to treat the tank with first white spot medicine, and then some all purpose stuff. This really didn't change anything. Others meanwhile were perfectly fine, infact, the Convicts had a batch of fry. Then more started the not eating-gasping routine, meanwhile the Kribensis had a batch of fry. It was at this time, I decided to find out about the cannister filter as the water was a little cloudy. Turns out that it was only a 700L/hr job, and was way too small for my ~450L tank. So I went to my LFS and bought myself an Aqua One Aquis 2400L/hr filter, in the hopes that this was the issue. I also at checked my PH and ammonia levels, and found nothing out of the ordinary. Anyways, 2-3 weeks later the problem still hadn't gone, and more fish had passed away, while the majority had the symtpoms described above, including the kribensis that had previously had a batch of fry. This brings me to about last week. After speaking with a colleague of mine that had kept Cichlids for many years, I decided to take my water to the LFS for testing, as well as to remove the pot described above (incase it was leeching something), even though my Jewel Cichlids had a batch of fry in there. The LFS told me that there was nothing obviously wrong with my water, and that my ammonia levels may have been high before the test and that I should stop feeding my fish once a day... (A little dissapointed with this answer) They also, said that the pot would not have caused the problem, which I still wonder about, as I noticed it had a terracotta colour paint on it after it dried out. So the same day, I decieded to do a 66% water change instead of my normal bi-weekly 25%, just incase there was something leeched into the water. Anyway, that was last Saturday, and I haven't noticed any change in the fish's behaviour, all of them (Those that are left) are still displaying the symtoms mentioned, with the exception of the Jewel Cichlids. The fish I have left are:

2x Jewel Cichlids (Only one's that are not displaying symptoms of not eating/breathing heavily, currently have a batch of fry)
2x Convicts (All tho I'm not sure as I haven't seen both of them for a bit)
2x Bolivian butterfly's
1x Angel fish (Legacy fish from my old community tank, had two, but one died due to this)
2x Bristlenose Cat's
2x Baby Oscars (I know I shouldn't, but they are quite small, and I'm looking after them for a friend)

I would think I have probably lost a few hundred $ worth of fish now. So not only is this extremley frustrating, it's also expensive. I have actually set up my old 65L tank again to house some newly aquired African Cichlids, and they seem to be perfectly fine!

If anyone can offer any advise on this matter, it would be greatly appreciated. Otherwise, my plan now is to empty the entire tank, pull everything out of it, scrub and wash it with water, and start again this long weekend (Not looking forward to it!).

Thanks for reading,
Cheers
Ian

[golden_dase]

Hi Ian

Sorry to hear about your dillema..

After a thorough read of your post, I didn't see anything mentioned of "airation". Although there are test kits for water parameters, those test kits do not test dissolved oxygen..
I had a very similiar problem about 2 years ago in my community tank. What I did was do a 30% water change and added 2 airstones to the tank and pumped it up. The fish stopped gasping at the surface and within a few hours were eating normally... Maybe you should try the method? Hopefully it might solve your problem..

Good luck buddy.

Cheers!
Kevin

[Trekrider]

I would agree with Kevin's comment about adding an airstone - I had a similar problem with my 6 foot tank but caught it before any fish died.

I am a bit concerned that you seem to have put a lot of fish in the tank without cycling the tank to build up bacteria in the filter. I note you said you 'cycled' the filter for a couple of days but the tank was empty so this would have achieved nothing unless you added ammonia or something to kick start the cycle. There are some excellent pinned posts on this forum about cycling of tanks but most people do this by adding just a few hardy fish and allowing the tank to cycle naturally - this can take anything from 4 to 8 weeks! Only after the tank has fully cycled should you consider adding any more fish.

If you add a new filter (as you did) it will also need to cycle - adding some filter media from the old filter will help speed this up. If you removed the old filter when you added the new one (you don't say if you did this) the whole cycle would have started again from scratch resulting in an ammonia spike that could cause problems.

Large water changes when a tank has just been set up can actually have a negative effect and increase the length of time it takes your filter to cycle - by taking away the ammonia you rob the bacteria in the filter of their food and hence they don't build up as quickly. This is why you should use a small number of hardy fish to cycle the tank.

I hope this helps.

[mdk54]

Thanks for the quick reply guys! And thanks for taking the time to read my 'essay'! Much appreciated!

To answer your queries,

- I have had a 4ft long rubber air diffuser buried in the gravel (bubbles up through it) for the length of the tank since I set the tank up, although I put this in there mainly for looks, so thanks for the advice Is there any way of testing dissolved O2?

- I did probably introduce the fish a little earlier than I should have, but at this time, there were only a few(Came from my old 65L), and they seemed to perform well for the first few weeks/month or so.

-With the new filter, I added some media from the old one, and had them running together for a few days. Should I have done this a bit longer? Even so, shouldn't the new filter have cleared up any problems by now, and the fish have recovered? (Has been running for about a month)

- That makes sense that a large water change could be detrimental to the bacteria, I'll remember this for the future I'm guessing if you needed to change a large amount of water you would be better to do smaller changes more frequently?

Cheers
Ian

[dazzabozza]

Gday Ian

Welcome to the forum!

-With the new filter, I added some media from the old one, and had them running together for a few days. Should I have done this a bit longer? Even so, shouldn't the new filter have cleared up any problems by now, and the fish have recovered? (Has been running for about a month)

If any permanent damage was done to the gills due to ammonia burn it's unlikely they'd recover.

- That makes sense that a large water change could be detrimental to the bacteria, I'll remember this for the future I'm guessing if you needed to change a large amount of water you would be better to do smaller changes more frequently?

If you have a large established bacterial colony it would cope better than a smaller one. e.g. if some was to die off you'd still have plenty left to cope with your tank load. If your colony was low to begin with it's best to avoid disrupting if possible.

Parasites such as gill fluke or whitespot should still be considered. The tank cycling could've contributed to an outbreak.


Daz

[SynoAngel]

Ian,

I'd remove the granite rock, theres a possibility that there was some sort of contamination in the water which the rock may have absorbed. Did you add some chlorine when soaking the piece of wood? It is also possible that the wood has some nasty organisms in it which may be causing a problem.

Did you rinse the filter media in the new filter before setting it up, that may be the reason for the milky water as ceramic rings normally havea fine white dust on them.

Daniel

[Trekrider]

-With the new filter, I added some media from the old one, and had them running together for a few days. Should I have done this a bit longer? Even so, shouldn't the new filter have cleared up any problems by now, and the fish have recovered? (Has been running for about a month)

I recently moved my Malawi's to a 5 foot tank from a 3 foot. I got the new filter, seeded it with material from the old filter and added it to the 3 foot tank and left both running together for a month before moving everything to the new tank. This included moving the gravel as this also contains good bacteria that help remove ammonia.

I suspect your fish suffered from several ammonia / nitrite spikes.

I would get your Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate levels checked again and see what this shows (Ammonia and Nitrite should be zero). Hopefully your filter will have cycled by now. It may be that the pot you mention leached something nasty into the water - I guess we will never know. Again, the water changes will hopefully have removed any nasties.

Let us know what the readings are now.

Regards,

[mdk54]

I recently moved my Malawi's to a 5 foot tank from a 3 foot. I got the new filter, seeded it with material from the old filter and added it to the 3 foot tank and left both running together for a month before moving everything to the new tank. This included moving the gravel as this also contains good bacteria that help remove ammonia.

I suspect your fish suffered from several ammonia / nitrite spikes.

I would get your Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate levels checked again and see what this shows (Ammonia and Nitrite should be zero). Hopefully your filter will have cycled by now. It may be that the pot you mention leached something nasty into the water - I guess we will never know. Again, the water changes will hopefully have removed any nasties.

Let us know what the readings are now.

Regards,

Yeah I think I should have been a little more careful when I set up this new tank.

Just tested my PH, Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate levels again and found the following:

PH - 7.4
Ammonia - 0ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
Nitrate - 10ppm

I think that is supposed to be ok yeah?

I'm wondering what I should do next now? Any suggestions much appreciated

Btw, Angelfish looks to be hours away from death, Butterfly's and Kribensis seem the same (Still gasping and not interested in food), Oscars seem a little better, and Jewel's are still caring for their fry.

Cheers
Ian

[mdk54]

Ian,

I'd remove the granite rock, theres a possibility that there was some sort of contamination in the water which the rock may have absorbed. Did you add some chlorine when soaking the piece of wood? It is also possible that the wood has some nasty organisms in it which may be causing a problem.

Did you rinse the filter media in the new filter before setting it up, that may be the reason for the milky water as ceramic rings normally havea fine white dust on them.

Daniel

G'day Daniel,

Thanks for your reply. I thought I put this reply up last night, but Looks as though I may have missed it.

Yeah might be an idea I think. I was actually wondering if it would have been possible for the rock to absorb anything. The only thing I soaked the driftwood in was hot tap water. Although I think that it may have already been pre-soaked, as there was not all that much tannin that came out of it.

Yep, I made sure to rinse all media and the 4 baskets before I put them into action.



BTW, here is a few pics of the set up.

[mdk54]

G'day Guys,

Just to update, The Angel fish died last night, along with one of the Butterfly's. After the water readings I got last night, I assume that these deaths are either being caused by permanent damge that was done as a result of an Ammonia/NH2/NH3 spike, or something else?

Cheers
Ian

[jslayz]

Hi

sorry to hear about your bad luck.
Please measure your Gh and Kh.
Butterfly n angels like softer water, maybe you have some carbonates leaching out of your rocks?
If the water is too hard would it not affect the gills ability to get oxygen from the water?

Just a thought....

J

[mdk54]

G'day everyone,

Just thought I'd provide another update. I ended up following the advise and removed the rocks that I had in the tank, and replaced them with some others. I also performed a water change, and cleaned the substrate whist the rocks were out. I moved all of the 'Survivors' of the original set up to the 65L tank that I am keeping my other newer 'ok fish' in and have had another couple of deaths since friday. All of them were the 'Survivor's' though, So I am definately leaning towards the assumption that the Ammonia levels must have caused permanent damage to them, as the rest of the fish are fine. I have since put some fish back into the 4 footer, and (fingers crossed) they seem to be doing well. I think I will leave it a few more days/a week, until I move the rest all over to the 4". Hopefully, I am not far from being able to have a beaut tank of healthy Cichlids again!

Would just like to thank all the people that responded and helped me diagnose this issue, as it has provided me a valuable lesson!

Cheers,
Ian

[jslayz]

G'day everyone,

Just thought I'd provide another update. I ended up following the advise and removed the rocks that I had in the tank, and replaced them with some others. I also performed a water change, and cleaned the substrate whist the rocks were out. I moved all of the 'Survivors' of the original set up to the 65L tank that I am keeping my other newer 'ok fish' in and have had another couple of deaths since friday. All of them were the 'Survivor's' though, So I am definately leaning towards the assumption that the Ammonia levels must have caused permanent damage to them, as the rest of the fish are fine. I have since put some fish back into the 4 footer, and (fingers crossed) they seem to be doing well. I think I will leave it a few more days/a week, until I move the rest all over to the 4". Hopefully, I am not far from being able to have a beaut tank of healthy Cichlids again!

Would just like to thank all the people that responded and helped me diagnose this issue, as it has provided me a valuable lesson!

Cheers,
Ian

I hope your tank has turned the corner n you will now be able to resume enjoying our hobby!!
Good luck.

[mdk54]

I hope your tank has turned the corner n you will now be able to resume enjoying our hobby!!
Good luck.

Well after enjoying a honeymoon period, it seems this problem might be rearing it's ugly head again! I've noticed a couple of my fish have started to breath a little heavily again... I am really at a loss as what to do. Water levels are still as I posted previously, and filter should be more than established anyway. I've noted that the fish that seem to be suffering breath heavily, then every now and then act like the are tying to spit something out. I was thinking about buying some of the rift lake additives to my water to see if that made a difference, but I know a few people in my area with the same fish, and same rocks in their tank that don't use them and don't have any issues. Does anyone else have any Ideas? I'm getting desperate!
Thanks for all the help,

Cheers
Ian

[jslayz]

Just a thought, could be way off track, when my fish started doing that spitting thing I gave them some pellets coated in crushed flagyl which contains metranidazole (i think that is how it is spelt).
Fish stopped 'spitting' after a week or so.
One of my fish passed a huge white poo as long as it's body after flagyl treatment and then got it's appetite back.

I'm going to investigate adding a 36W UV steriliser to my filter's output & see if that provides a long term fix.

Would adding one of those be an option for you to try?

Also, are the fish eating?

do they have white stringy poops?

My rivulatus gold saum are starting to do this again.....all other fish are fine.

Clutching at straws but that spitting thing got me thinking.

J

[mdk54]

Just a thought, could be way off track, when my fish started doing that spitting thing I gave them some pellets coated in crushed flagyl which contains metranidazole (i think that is how it is spelt).
Fish stopped 'spitting' after a week or so.
One of my fish passed a huge white poo as long as it's body after flagyl treatment and then got it's appetite back.

I'm going to investigate adding a 36W UV steriliser to my filter's output & see if that provides a long term fix.

Would adding one of those be an option for you to try?

Also, are the fish eating?

do they have white stringy poops?

My rivulatus gold saum are starting to do this again.....all other fish are fine.

Clutching at straws but that spitting thing got me thinking.

J

G'day J,

Thanks for the reply!

Where abouts do you get this 'Flagyl'? Might be worth trying to see if it works.

The UV steriliser could be a viable option for me, so long as they do actually kill the bad bacteria and parasites. Do you have any comments about these units?

The sick fish do eat at the start, but then progress to not eating at all

Yes, I have noticed that they sometimes have white stringy poo's that are quite long. Is this an indication of an infection?

Thanks for your help mate, really appreciate it. As you can imagine, I am becoming incredibly frustrated with this!

Cheers
Ian

[jslayz]

G'day J,

Thanks for the reply!

Where abouts do you get this 'Flagyl'? Might be worth trying to see if it works.

The UV steriliser could be a viable option for me, so long as they do actually kill the bad bacteria and parasites. Do you have any comments about these units?

The sick fish do eat at the start, but then progress to not eating at all

Yes, I have noticed that they sometimes have white stringy poo's that are quite long. Is this an indication of an infection?

Thanks for your help mate, really appreciate it. As you can imagine, I am becoming incredibly frustrated with this!

Cheers
Ian

I'm definitely no expert but when my fish were doing that the flagyl (gotta get from a vet) helped.

It combats bacterial intestinal infections, they must be in the water though and get ingested by the fish so I figured a long term solution would be the addition of a strong UV steriliser.
This is how one of (perhaps all?) of the sponsors keep waterbourne bacterias/parasites in check, hence why I may invest.

Mr docfish might be able to give us a more knowledgable answer.

I'm gonna search for UV Steriliser review, on mfk and here and hope to find answers otherwise I will post to hopefully get some feedback.

see here : http://www.perthcich...p;hl=steriliser

J

[Neakit]

these remadies are useless unless you get a water test done on ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. untill they are clear you are grasping at straws

[woodsy]

G'day Daniel,

Thanks for your reply. I thought I put this reply up last night, but Looks as though I may have missed it.

Yeah might be an idea I think. I was actually wondering if it would have been possible for the rock to absorb anything. The only thing I soaked the driftwood in was hot tap water. Although I think that it may have already been pre-soaked, as there was not all that much tannin that came out of it.

Yep, I made sure to rinse all media and the 4 baskets before I put them into action.



BTW, here is a few pics of the set up.

nothing tech to say just what a beautiful tank
Woodsy

[mdk54]

these remadies are useless unless you get a water test done on ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. untill they are clear you are grasping at straws

I posted these earlier mate.

Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 10
PH 7.4-7.6