137 replies to this topic

[Poncho]

It's not about the certificate, it's about the availability of true species that we care about in our hobby. If you went into a shop and saw two tanks side by side both with electric yellows in it at the same price but one tank said the fish were PCS accredited, which one would you buy? And if you don't know any better there's a good chance you're going to start finding out why fish are accredited.

If we had a webpage explaining exactly what accreditation means eg. fish bred in a species tank and three spawns of fry verified to check for abnomalities, then people would know the chances of hybrid yellows are much less when buying accredited fish. The challenge is to create a system that is very difficult to cheat yet practical. I don't think people will look at this for any financial benefit for producing accredited fish - it should be something breeders do because they are passionate about keeping the fish true to species and if I know one thing about the hobby it's that we have a lot of passionate people.

[Cawdor]

We can talk about certificates and checks and systems till the cows come home. In the end, the responsibility lies with the person/shop selling the fish. The responsible shops are the ones who selectively choose their local suppliers based on trust and experience and won't buy fry/juvie fish from any Joe that wanders in from the street.

The ones that don't adhere to this and have staff with little knowledge are the ones adding to the problem and no amount of checks can change that, unless the shop owner is willing to make changes and become responsible regarding hybridisation.

The PCS will continue to educate people and pass on knowledge in any way we can, but in the end the people buying and selling need to have the desire to make a difference, based on the knowledge of the subject and its repercussions. If they don't give a damn whether the fish they trade are pure, then there's nothing that can be done. The stance of the PCS regarding hybrids makes sure people know that purebred fish are of a higher value to the hobby than hybrids and hopefully makes people think twice and decide against selling fish that are "stripey blue marble peacocks" etc.

Education, as always, is the key.

[Den]

Brett I have noticed at Vebas when I used to sell them Malawis many many years ago that they never mixed different spawns and it looks like they might still follow that practice because for example last time I was there I noticed 3 seperate tanks of electric yellows and to me they all looked like different bloodlines.

So its likely that at least some LFS would have the capacity to accomodate such a system and if it was a well designed and trusted system I cant imagine why stores wouldnt think its a good idea to follow, they would be less likely to fall into the trap Steve recently fell into paying good money for hybrids when they were supposed to be true to breed.

Cheers
Den

[tranced]

your not going to monitor the tanks 24/7, they could easily change the setup of their 'certified' tank later on, and who would know?

[golden_dase]

Sorry if this sounds stooopid... but what's the BAP for? I assumed that was a register of fish being bred by members? Isn't it the same sort of thing?

BUMP!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL!

[Scat]

So how do you know that someone had bred a hybrid hybrid er like omg someone crossed my flowerhorn

Craig

[Den]

I couldnt imagine how you can so easily attract a stigma in this hobby, after 23 years of keeping and breeding cichlids and years adding info to this site, now I start keeping some flowerhorns its like I am completely discredited overnight.

Cheers
Den

[anchar]

....and you can't rely on reputation either. A fellow member and myself purchased some 1cm 7 bar fronties from the east when they were first available ($50 each from memory). They "looked" fine but as mature fish they were throwing split bar fry ie. 6 bar on one side and 7 bar on the other side. Obviously at some point in the breeding process, 6's and 7's were housed together. This was not evident until the next generation came about. We have both since gotten rid of the offending stock.

Andrea

[werdna]

Look down under the rug! is it a turd? is it a stain? no its the hybrid issue!

I couldnt imagine how you can so easily attract a stigma in this hobby, after 23 years of breeding cichlids and years adding info to this site, now I start keeping some flowerhorns its like I am completely discredited overnight.

Any other quips you would like to add? There seems to be quite fair and reasonable discussion going on and you keep adding crap like this.
I dont think you are being discredited at all. If you put a post up in the first place simply saying I have always liked these, check out the fish I got, people wouldnt have an issue.
Instead you post a pic up with an attention grabbing headline, constantly provoke people, try to force your opinion down peoples throats and then complain when people argue back.
If you want to know who has caused the sudden tightening of the rules regarding hybrids, look in the mirror, stop kidding yourself.
Get off your high horse, stop trying to convince yourself that you are a smarter person than anyone else therefore anyone whos opinion is different to yours doesnt matter and is wrong and then maybe you'll get your respect back.
I personally do respect you for your experience in fishkeeping, and there would be very few people that can compare to your experience with large tanks.
But too often you cross the line and are too stubborn to admit it.

If any other flowerhorn keepers have a problem with the change of rules, thank Den.
Also, if you cant see any problem with the posts on here, ask Den while thanking him how many of his posts were deleted.

Andrew

[STEVEGREEN]

i have met very few people since i have been in the hobby that would be educated enough to identify true strains/hybrids.

thats why education is so important , a piece of paper means nothing , only by owning the fish will you know.

in the past some people have been in Andrea's position and had made such a financial investment in the stock that they refused to believe they were not the real deal and sold them on to re-coup costs.

Tim is correct , remove them from the shops and 99% of the problems gone.

if anything was to be done to help i would be happy to see Hybrids taken from shop sponsers ( they would have the most hybrids between them ) removed as donations and destroyed

say NO to " Mixed Cichlid " tanks

Cheers
Steve Green

[STEVEGREEN]

Cheers
Steve Green

[Den]

Hey Andrew,

Im getting tired of your personal attacks mate.

Cheers
Den

[STEVEGREEN]

Den how confident are you that you had no hybrids in your large Malawi tanks.

since you were raving about your experience with large tanks ive looked at some old pics and have seen some questionables

so how confident are you in your 23 years experience of keeping fish that you werent keeping Malawi hybrids ?

Having Malawi's being my first love in keeping cichlids i take a lot of interest in Haps especially

cheers
Steve Green

[Den]

Hi Steve

That large tank was setup for the purpose of display, not breeding, only a small percentage of the fish bred in the tank were ever sold and a few were given to friends free of charge and many of the fish sold were grown to adult size or close.

One example that supports my observations: I had at least 3 generations of both types of Acei breeding in the tank and they were all grown to adult size and all continued to be true to form, except one indiviual acei that I mentioned before.

As I have previously mentioned I have never witnessed a hybrid spawning in my large tanks, and I clocked thousands of hours viewing, thats all I can say.

I dont think its fair that people continue to imply or accuse me of spreading hybrids from this tank, without any evidence, when its likely more than 90% of you breed malawis in community tanks which are much much smaller than this one.

Cheers
Den

[STEVEGREEN]

answer the question Den

Cheers
Steve Green

[Den]

Sorry Steve I thought I did? is this what you are reffering to?

Den how confident are you that you had no hybrids in your large Malawi tanks

since you were raving about your experience with large tanks ive looked at some old pics and have seen some questionables

Could you please point them out I am eager to learn.

thanks


Cheers
Den

[Poncho]

Kev, the BAP is slightly different in that it doesn't have any capacity to gather information on how the species is being kept, bred or its lineage. But with a bit of tweaking it would certainly be the best starting point.

We shouldn't look at such an accreditation system as having to be perfect as I don't think that's possible and there will always be ways to cheat it. But if we can design a system that will help improve the situation in any way I think it is worth it.

I agree education is the key but not everyone who buys a cichlid is exposed to the PCS or even if they are, they aren't necessarily educated on the hybrid issue. An accredited fish draws attention to the issue and the system/program which in turn could direct buyers of cichlids to a source of information that explains the issue thus exposing them to the hybrid issue and making them more aware of it. To educate we first need to make people more aware - I think the underlying issue is that people are just not aware of the problems that crossbreeding cause, it's not that they don't care. What we currently do as a club is limited as we rely on people to register on the PCS forum and search for hybrid related discussions - which nearly always turn into some kind of pointless argument about who is right, thus scaring away newcomers instead of educating them.

I see a good system as one where passionate club members voluntarily participate and believe in what the program is trying to achieve. Ideally it would have no real financial benefit initially so that people who participate are doing it for the right reasons and there would be no gain in trying to corrupt the system. It's something that we should start small and focus on a problem of concern. I'd like to suggest the PCS Aulonocara breeding standard program to keep a log of natural varients that occur in our hobby and increase consumer confidence that what they are buying is actually that. This genus in our hobby is IMO in the worst condition with heaps of species and varient crosses and man-made line bred brands (trash IMO). I can't buy a peacock with a locality with any confidence in it being a true representative. However, they are importable so we can source them easily enough and they are a popular fish that are commonly kept by newcomers to the cichlid scene.

I've thought about this a bit and I'll put my thoughts together in a more organised fashion but for now I envisage something like:

Participants have to achieve a certain rank in the BAP first (remember we had breeder level A & B and expert breeder before). They purchase a colony of peacocks have to breed it three times and have each spawn and all the fry within each spawn verified and checked for any abnormalities by an inspector. Then we confirm that colony as PCS certified and allow the breeder to sell future offspring as an accredited breeder of species/locality X.

The inspectors could have certain criteria to meet too. eg. must be at Breeder level C, have been a club member for the past three consecutive years, have entered at least three varients of peacocks in the BAP. When the breeder has a load of juvies that he wants to sell, he gets it inspected and the inspector checks it off against some kind of standard for that species.

The standards could include things like fish known to hybridise with species, recommended keeping practices and fish description. The inspector categorises the spawn according to the standard and we'd have category A for instance, which means kept in species tank, meets all recommended keeping practices and parents verified against fish description or category B - meets 8 of 9 recommended keeping practices under standard and is kept in a community tank with no known hybridising species.

This is just a brain dump and already I can see holes in it and barriers to overcome but I'm just putting some ideas out there at this stage. Let me know if you think I'm dreaming. If/once we get it right we should look at mbuna or haps or CA's.

The issues - are we going to get participants? are we going to get shops to adopt the system and keep accredited fish seperate from general fish? Does the PCS have the capacity to pull this off?

Anyways, I'll draft something more clear and post for people's comments. But if we start with something small, we should be able to grow it into something that can really make a difference. At the same time we'd be promoting the hobby and the club and saying to the regulators - we know how to look after our hobby. If we do nothing then are we really as passionate about our fish as we'd like to think or are we just in it to try and make a few bucks?

[Tucunare]

you can take fish from shops based on your point of view. otherwise there would be no pet industry.
the breeding register demonstrates my point though. this issue is a million times bigger than the PCS forum, users and Members. i have no doubt everyone on here thinks there doing the right thing and its not the people on here im refering to, it is the average joe off the street that threw a handfull of fish in a tank now has three or four handfulls and trades them in.
personally i think dens malawi tank is still one of the better ones ive seen, heaps of forum members bought fish off him and to my knowledge no one ever mentioned hybrid - i only heard good reports from this tank.
again this is a bigger problem than the 5 or 6 people slinging abuse at each other here.

[Den]

Brett you and I are on the exact same page as far as this acredited system concept goes. I guess this chance to do something will prove if the purists shaking their fists around these threads true passion is really maintaining species or just all talk, from their posts and actions its seems bashing people around on the issue is perhaps what their real true passion is.

personally i think dens malawi tank is still one of the better ones ive seen, heaps of forum members bought fish off him and to my knowledge no one ever mentioned hybrid - i only heard good reports from this tank.

Thanks Steve, but like I said my history is all ignored by these extremists, some people turn on you once you start to keep flowerhorns.

Steve Green if you see a fish thats questionable in any of my pics please bring it to the table if I have made a transgression I would like to resolve it, instead of accusing me of creating the questionable fish did you ever consider that perhaps I purchased that fish and was the victim of someone elses mistake?

I am human and I am not infallable, but once I put my cape on I become Luohan man, I dont play GOD, I'm a luohan man I am one!

Cheers
Den

[Den]

Heres a challenge to the people here who want to run this club as a no hybrid zone! lets test if there is a double standard here?

Im not going to say anything, but please explain what these fish and setups are as per the true science? please refer to credited discus experts such as Heiko Bleher or Jack Wattley, not in your personal opinion but based on credited research/info.

Im not having a go at these people below who keep fancy man made cichlids, in this case discus, I say go for it, but I agree with the purists that all fish should all be correctly represented and labelled, I am simply using the examples here to question wether the PCS manages its hybrid policy under a double standard?

http://www.perthcich...x...ost&id=7938
Whats this?

http://www.perthcich...x...6&hl=discus
What this?

http://www.perthcich...x...9&hl=discus
Whats this?

http://www.perthcich...x...6&hl=discus
Whats this?

Just search discus on this forum, I can bring up hundreds of examples of hybrids accepted by this club and on this site.

Now again I have made the truth too difficult to face, I expect as usual this thread to be deleted.

Cheers
Den