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#1 waruna

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 11:48 AM

First and foremost all this hard work was done by Neil (RD), so all credit to him.

QUOTE
Understanding Fish Food Labels
By Neil Wegner



Short of being a nutritionist, as well as an expert on the various regulations in the numerous countries where the food is manufactured, reading & understanding pet food labels can be extremely difficult, if not next to impossible. Unfortunately the pet fish food industry is seriously lacking in regulation. In many cases ingredients are regulated to be listed on the label by weight on an "as is" basis. Simply put, ingredients containing large amounts of water, for example fresh fish, will be listed ahead of grains, even though the grain might contribute a greater percentage of the protein in the finished product.

Some countries like the United States have detailed definitions of different ingredients, yet there can still be an extreme range in the quality (e.g., digestibility and bioavailability of nutrients) within any ingredient category. As an example not all 'Krill' products are always equal in nutritional value. Some manufacturers (such as New Life Spectrum) use Krill that is fresh and that has been chilled immediately upon being caught. Others may be using Krill that has been lying on a boat for several days without proper temperature control.

Under the current regulations pet food manufacturers have to run feeding trials for pet foods such as cat & dog food. No such regulations are in place for fish food. Some countries also have regulations governing the naming of products for cat and dog food. Products named as a sole ingredient, e.g., Chicken, contain the majority of that ingredient (70-100%, excluding additives). Products that have a modifier added to the ingredient name, e.g., Chicken Dinner or Chicken Stew, contain 10-70% of that ingredient. Products named using the term "with" (e.g., With Chicken) contain 3-10% of the named ingredient. Products named with the term flavour (e.g., Chicken Flavour) often contain significantly less than 3%. Unfortunately the same regulations do not hold true for the pet fish food industry.

Some of the so-called "Spirulina Flakes' have very little actual spirulina in the food. The following food could legally be marketed as "Spirulina Flakes, but when one looks at the ingredients list you can clearly see that Spirulina does not make up a large percentage of this food. In fact the Spirulina content is quite low.
Ingredients: Fish Meal, Soy Flour, Wheat Flour, Oat Flour, Corn Gluten Meal, Shrimp Meal, Brewers Dried Yeast, Spirulina, Dried Plankton, Fish Oil, Vitamin Supplements. In reality there is very little Spirulina in the make up of this food, yet it can be legally marketed & sold as "Spirulina Flakes". A more accurate name might be Fish Meal & Four Grain Flakes. This is a good example of why one must always read the label closely, and not just rely on the manufacturers brand name.

Grains have their place in fish foods, both as a binder, as well as to help synthesize lipids & protein, but sometimes you need to read some of the manufacturers advertising with a grain of salt. Some manufacturers might state that other fish food manufacturers use so called "poor quality" fish meal as the main source of protein, and that the second ingredient will be some kind of starch, such as wheat flour. The manufacturer might then attempt to make you believe that this extra starch is cheap filler, replacing potential high quality proteins and fats. Upon closer inspection these same manufacturers do exactly what they are condemning others for doing. They too use grain such as Wheat Flour, and Wheat Gluten as both a binder, as well as a source of protein. The reality is that all fish foods need to use a binder in their food (such as wheat flour) or the food would simply crumble apart into powder. There are many ways to manipulate the ingredients label so that it makes your food appear to be head and shoulders above the rest.


As an example, if the manufacturer used "Fresh Fish" in the food, and that fish came from several different types of fish, one could simply list each fish species separately to make it appear as though the first 4-5 ingredients were fresh fish. By the time you get to the next ingredient, Wheat Flour (big surprise!), they hope that you see this as the 6th or 7th ingredient on the list, not the second or third. This is where the "listed on the label by weight on an as-is basis" comes into play.

Obviously it would be much easier to simply list the main ingredient as "Fresh Fish", with perhaps a list of the various fish used in brackets (Krill-Salmon-Shrimp-Herring-Cod), but that would mean the second ingredient in that fish food would now become Wheat Flour, with perhaps something like Wheat Gluten as the third ingredient. Suddenly the manufacturers comments about other manufacturers using cheap starch fillers such as Wheat Flour as the second ingredient rings rather hollow. If one was to combine the Wheat Flour (second ingredient) along with the Wheat Gluten (third ingredient) listed by weight on an as-is basis", and the water content was removed from the fresh fish, the so called cheap filler would now become closer to the main ingredient.

More slick willie gimmicks.

There are virtually no state or federal agencies that actually check these foods before they are sold to consumers. A fish food maker can say pretty much anything they want, and place pretty much anything they want on a label, or their web site, who's to stop them? I'll tell you who, no one. It's a free for all out there, and the sad part is that many manufacturers take advantage of that fact. If it wasn't for the fact that many of them are based in the USA (the land of lawsuits), god only knows what they'd attempt to feed the public, or what they'd place on their labels.

I used to promote a well know maker of flakes in the past and I honestly felt they provided a good quality fish flake. I was wrong, and I was duped.

This manufacturer makes a VERY big issue on their web site about how low in ash their products are, and how 'bad' excess ash is in a food. They're right about one not wanting excess ash in a food, but the part they forgot to mention is that one of their main flakes (the one I was using) is very high in ash. My feed trials with L. caeruleus proved this to me, as the growth on their flakes was approx 50% of what it was during the same period when feeding New Life Spectrum. I began taking a closer look at their spirulina flakes, and what did I discover ....... it is the ONLY food that they do not state the Max. Ash content. Co inky-dink? I think not. No doubt that without me ever knowing it, these flakes added extra pollution to my tank water, and due to the high mineral content my fish grew at only half the rate as they did on New Life Spectrum.

See how easy it is to manipulate an ingredients label on fish food?
If one of your products is high in ash, simply don't state the ash content in that food. Problem solved!

Another very well known company uses smoke and mirrors on their ingredients list, the whole thing is such a jumbled up mess that it's difficult to tell what ingredient is where on the list, and they bank on that fact! Just like some of the other manufacturers, they clump several "fish" ingredients together to make a loooooooong list of their "fresh fish", then slip wheat flour in waaaaaaaaaaay down the list hoping by then most people have quit reading. Hey, it obviously works, right? In this company’s case, they actually call it "wheat flower", as though it grows in your garden.

Unreal ...........


This same company also has Shrimp listed as the main ingredient in their pellet food, yet fail to point out that the shrimp are raised on "shrimp farms" in Ecuador. These shrimp that they use are commonly called "white shrimp", and for the most part are raised on what's known as "intensive farms", where the conditions are extremely crowded, and most of the farms require the use of hormones & antibiotics to keep disease outbreaks from occurring.

Also, take a guess as to the quality of feed used on these "intensive shrimp farms" based in Ecuador?


Sheesh, talk about something I do NOT want my fish eating, yet the average consumer sees Shrimp listed as the main ingredient, and they assume the food is premium stuff.

Wrong!

The term meal, such as Fish Meal and/or Krill Meal is another misunderstood ingredient.
Many people think of Fish Meal as being a poor quality source of protein. This is simply not true! Fish meal is used in a wide variety of animal feed applications including, pet food, poultry, and protein blends. Fish meal such as Herring meal, is an excellent source of protein and rich in essential amino acids, vitamins and minerals. High quality fish meals such as Herring meal, is processed from "whole fish”. Lower quality fish meals such as most of the "white fish meals" use only the heads, bones, and scales for their fish meals. The same applies to Shrimp meal, there is very little actual shrimp, and is mostly made up from waste material, heads, tails, and shells. For this reason it is also obviously much less costly for the manufacturer compared to a high quality meal, such as Krill or Herring meal.

One of the highest quality meals with regards to sources of protein and amino acids is Krill Meal. Krill Meal is an excellent source of natural antioxidants and pigments. Krill meal is superior to other crustacean meal products in terms of its amino acidic content, its attractant and flavouring quality, the capability of the fish to extract the pigments from the meals, and its immune stimulant quality. Not only does it have a high natural pigment content (astaxanthin), the astaxanthin also functions as an antioxidant. It has been proven that this pigment has a positive effect in the rates of growth and immune modulation in fish.

According to a recent study on lipid (fat) levels used in feeds for African Cichlids that was performed at the University of Florida, fat levels over 10% were found to cause serious liver damage if used long term.
The info in this report was relating to juvenile African cichlids, that were only 4 weeks old at the start of this 12-week feed trial. Even with very young fish, who require higher levels of both protein as well as fat, the higher lipid (fat) content found in the trout pellet diet (TP) caused these young fish to develop fatty livers, within a very short period of time.


Also, from this report;

"Fatty infiltration of the liver has also been designated "the most common metabolic disturbance and most frequent cause of death in aquarium fish."

Now imagine what happens to the liver of an adult African cichlid when fed diets that contain excessive amounts of lipids. The juvie H. ahli (s. fryeri) used in this study faired much better being a carnivore, but it still showed a lipid accumulation in the hepatocytes. (<50%) The P. socolofi had extensive lipid accumulation when fed this TP diet.


More info from this report:


"With prolonged feeding of a high-energy, lipid rich diet, degenerative changes of the liver and death can occur unless the diet is corrected."


Those that know me know that I've been harping about this for some time, but perhaps when people read it first hand from a study performed by the Department of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences at the University of Florida, they'll understand why I never recommend using some of these various fish foods that are over 9% in crude fat. (for freshwater fish)


The connection between excessive lipids & fatty liver disease has been common knowledge in the aquaculture industry for many years, but the interesting part about this study was that it involved African Cichlids, which as far as I know is a first.
Suddenly foods that have 10-14% crude fat (min), don't look too appealing as an adult maintenance diet, do they?


The photos showing sections of the livers of these fish after being on a high fat diet was quite an eye opener. This study came about after some cichlid farms in south FL suffered from some large mortalities in both 1998 & 1999. When the dead fish were examined they showed fatty infiltration of the liver, heavy vacuolation, and severe necrosis of the liver, pancreas, and spleen.
It was suggested to the farms that they replace their feeds with one that had a lower lipid content (less than 10%) and supplement the feed with a vitamin premix. Clinical signs in the affected farms were resolved after implementation of these recommendations.
They also compared the nutritional aspects between pellets and flakes, with pellets being more nutrient dense, and more stable in water.

Perhaps one of the most misunderstood portions of the label has to do with crude protein and fat, and how the industry comes up with these percentages.
Here is how the guaranteed analysis is calculated. First off the food sample is dried, which removes the moisture. The weight of the food after it is dried is then subtracted from the initial weight to get the percent moisture. Next the sample is put through an ether extract. Ether dissolves the fat out of the food, and the difference is percent fat. Following that, a Kjeldahl analysis determines the amount of nitrogen. This method assumes most protein contains about 16% nitrogen. Percent Protein is the percent nitrogen multiplied by 6.25 (the factor that results from the assumption of 16% nitrogen: divide 100 by 16 to get 6.25. 6.25 times the percent nitrogen gives percent protein.)

Then an acid and alcohol wash removes fibre, and the difference is percent fibre. The last step is to burn what is left over to determine the percent ash, the mineral content. If all of these are totalled and then subtracted from 100, which would be the total amount of the food in the beginning, percent carbohydrate is the result. For example, a food has 34% protein, 5% fat, 10% water, 9% ash, and 5% fibre. If added up, the result equals 63%. Subtract 63% from 100% and that will give you 37% carbohydrate in the product.

So what exactly does all this tell you about the overall nutritional quality of the food? To be honest, not a whole lot. Percent protein says nothing about the quality of the protein, only the quantity of nitrogen. The value of protein is directly related to the amino acid content. It doesn't tell you how that protein was processed, or if it's even in a form that your fish can properly utilize. The same holds true for the other ingredients.


I hope this has helped explain some of the manufacturer label terms, and marketing hype, that is currently used in the pet fish food industry.


References


1. North American Journal of Aquaculture: Vol. 66, No. 4, pp. 285–292. An Evaluation of Two Commercially Prepared Feeds on Growth Performance and Liver Condition of Juvenile African Cichlids Pseudotropheus socolofi and Haplochromis ahli



Some info on fat/lipids (The link no longer works, i will try and find another)

QUOTE
The following paper was recently sent to me & although you need a subscription to read the entire study, the link provides a brief abstract, and I've added a bit more detail below.

http://afs.allenpres...e...=4&page=285

Keep in mind that the info in this report was relating to juvenile African cichlids, that were only 4 weeks old at the start of this 12 week feed trial.

Even with very young fish, who require higher levels of both protein as well as fat, the higher lipid (fat) content found in the trout pellet diet (TP) caused these young fish to develop fatty livers, within a very short period of time.

Also, from this report;

QUOTE
"Fatty infiltration of the liver has also been designated "the most common metabolic disturbance and most frequent cause of death in aquarium fish"


Now imagine what happens to the liver of an adult African cichlid when fed diets that contain excessive amounts of lipids. The juvie H. ahli (s. fryeri) used in this study faired much better being a carnivore, but it still showed a lipid accumulation in the hepatocytes. (<50%) The P. socolofi had extensive lipid accumulation when fed this TP diet.


QUOTE
With prolonged feeding of a high-energy, lipid rich diet, degenerative changes of the liver and death can occur unless the diet is corrected.


Those here that know me know that I've been harping about this for some time, but perhaps when people read it first hand from a study performed by the Department of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences at the University of Florida, they'll understand why I never recommend using some of these various fish foods that are over 9% in crude fat. (for freshwater fish)

The U of Florida also compared the nutritional aspects between pellets and flakes, with pellets being more nutrient dense, and more stable in water.

The connection between excessive lipids & fatty liver disease has been common knowledge in the aquaculture industry for many years, but the interesting part about this study was that it involved African Cichlids, which as far as I know is a first.

Suddenly foods that have 10-14% crude fat (min), don't look too appealing as an adult maitenance diet, do they?

The photos showing sections of the livers of these fish after being on a high fat diet was quite an eye opener. Aaaaaaah!!!

This study came about after some cichlid farms in south FL suffered from some large mortalities in both 1998 & 1999. When the dead fish were examined they showed fatty infiltration of the liver, heavy vacuolation, and severe necrosis of the liver, pancreas, and spleen.

It was suggested to the farms that they replace ther feeds with one that had a lower lipid content (less than 10%) and supplement the feed with a vitamin premix. Clinical signs in the affected farms were resolved after implementation of these recommendations.

HTH


This best explains about protein percentages on labels so it is worth repeating here:

QUOTE
Percentages on labels are for the most part nothing more than numbers that someone wearing a white lab coat have come up with via an in-house analysis. As an example, the crude protein % is nothing more than the total nitrogen content found in the food, it doesn't tell you anything about the amino acid content, the overall quality of that protein, or even the total digestibility of that protein. (as in the protein that your fish can actually assimilate)
An old leather boot would appear as "crude protein" on a pet food label.

In other words it is impossible to judge the quality of one food over another by simply comparing percentages found on a label.

If a fish food label shows a crude protein percent of 48%, but only 50% of that crude protein can actually be utilized by the fish, a more accurate reading for that food would be a total digestible protein reading of 24%. Even as larger carnivorous species mature, the less protein they require in their diet for growth & normal metabolic function. Of course many hobbyists are under the impression that the more protein the better, no matter what stage of life their fish is at. This is simply not true, and can ultimately lead to less than optimum water quality in ones tank. While many species of fish are capable of using a high protein diet, in some cases as much as 50-60% of that protein may be excreted into your aquarium water. Most nitrogen is excreted as ammonia (NH3) via the gills of the fish, with only approx 10% being excreted as solid waste. In other words, most of this wasted protein will never be visually seen by the hobbyist.



There are lots of products out there, some even with similar names to New Life Spectrum (These two companies are NOT affiliated in ANY way), like this one:

http://spectrumaquac...sh-weaning-diet

SPECTRUM MICRON DIETS
Highly attractive with excellent water stability characteristics
Improved water quality – No tank fouling
Highly digestible proteins with optimal amino-acid balance
Vitamin boosted – Vit. C Vit. E Vit. A Vit. D3
Natural Pigments to enhance colour – astaxanthin
Formulated with immunostimulants, anti-stress nutrients and pigments
Marine and Plant Proteins only – no terrestrial animal products in this feed
Protein 55%
Lipid 9% (NRD) – 13% (Orange)
Fiber 1.9%


While it is very high in protein does it tell us anything else? Why list ingredients when you don't have to?!

Cheers,
Waruna

My apologies to everyone, i have edited this post. I didn't realize the bit about New Life and Pablo on the article. was

#2 waruna

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 12:17 PM

Link to the study above can be found here:
http://www.tandfonli....1577/A03-035.1

Regards,

#3 sydad

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 01:35 PM


Hi Waruna,

Why the cheap crack asking why ingredients are listed when the manufacturer "does not have to"? Ever heard of honesty, maybe just for it's own sake? And then perhaps, just perhaps, there are those, like myself, who understand enough about nutrition to appreciate that the lipids are necessary for developmental function in fry.

The 13% lipid that you seem to find so undesirable, is found only in the "Orange" weaning diet produced by Primo Aquaculture. This is a very small particle food for very young fry that benefit from the higher lipid content in their formative stages . The larger NRD foods contain the lower lipid levels, and larger particles are for larger fish. Get it?

As I'm not prepared to pay the required $US110 to access the full article for which you kindly provided the link, I don't know the full import of the article, and as a scientist I would never rely on an abstract to tell it to me. One thing however is evident, and that is that different fish have different nutritional requirements, particularly during formative stages, and I see nothing in any part of your post that convinces me that the product you promote ad nauseum, while good, is actually better than others, or worth the cost premium it attracts.

Syd.

#4 waruna

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 03:47 PM

Hi Syd,

No one is arguing that lipids aren't important or the role it plays in juvenile fish. I posted this simply because as far i know this is the only study involving African Cichlids. If you want to argue with the findings of this study it's your call.

As far as ingredient lists go this is the only product that i have come across that does NOT list even a single ingredient, don't you find that odd?

QUOTE
The larger NRD foods contain the lower lipid levels, and larger particles are for larger fish. Get it?


Which is why it is highlighted, yes i got it, and thanks for checking.

QUOTE
One thing however is evident, and that is that different fish have different nutritional requirements, particularly during formative stages, and I see nothing in any part of your post that convinces me that the product you promote ad nauseum, while good, is actually better than others, or worth the cost premium it attracts.


The correct Latin term is Ad nauseam.

The product i promote was mentioned only once, ONLY to clarify that it is not affiliated with the other food. Obviously your statement above was not related to this post, if you have a problem with how i promote my product please contact the admins.

The ingredients of the product that i promote is much better, we openly debate this, not only that there is a public forum where the formulator of NLS quite simply answer all questions relating to his products. Here is the link:
http://nlsfishfood.c...o...0&Itemid=62

You mentioned honesty before, can it get any better than that? How many CEO's do you know who dedicate their time this way?

The point i want to make is (and i'm quite sure i did) just because there is a higher percentage of protein it does not necessarily mean A product is better. The thread is about understanding labels and percentages..

This is an open forum, i am not forcing you to read any of my posts. To be honest i am a bit disappointed, usually your posts are quite informative and i read them with a little enthusiasm.

Thanks for your input anyway:)

#5 Riggers

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 04:31 PM

Thanks Waruna, good article smile.gif it certainly gave me a better understanding of what fish food labelling actually means, I'll be paying a lot more attention to the labels now!

#6 waruna

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 07:01 PM

Thanks Riggermortis smile.gif

I'd like to clarify a few things, i thought this info may help understand more about fish food labeling, specially those new members here. Yes i have posted the "Understanding Fish Food Labels" article before, over five years ago, Feb 2007. So if anyone feels that i have wasted their valuable time by re posting this my apologies.

I am NOT saying aqua culture feeds don't have it's place in our hobby, they do. Not all fish foods are made the same way, one must be aware when incorporating these kinds of feeds with foods that specifically designed for our hobby. Not all, most of these aqua culture feeds are designed to grow fish fast, for human consumption, with minimal time. Therefore they may not be suitable for our aquarium fish. We want our fish to live longer, not a year or two. That is why i highlighted the "13% (Orange)" formula, this formula is marketed for juvenile fish.

Syd basically said i have not pointed out why NLS is better than this particular food. It's simple, the proof is the delicate Marine fish we are able to keep on NLS. Fresh water fish are very easy to maintain compared with some of the delicate marines. Pablo has been keeping some of these fish (and documenting) for the past 15 years or so.. Specially Species such as Moorish Idols..

QUOTE
Kieron Dodds, from Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine wrote an article on the Moorish Idol last year, titled; "Still Impossible After All These Years - Keeping Moorish Idol". He clearly admits that the main intent of his article was to discourage anyone from acquiring this species, as he feels this species has almost no chance in being kept alive in captivity beyond a very short duration. At one point he states "Pablo Tepoot is perhaps the single individual who has had the most success with this species" - unfortunately Pablo lost his last group of Moorish Idol to an electrical failure during a hurricane, at that point Pablo had kept them thriving in captivity for 5 years. Again, something that most people would have considered impossible 15 or 20 yrs ago.”


And articles titled such as this: A feeding Revolution?
http://nlsfishfood.c...o...2&Itemid=70

I can go on but i didn't want this thread to be a NLS thread, i was simply posting an interesting thread on fish food labeling and percentages. If you are after a cheap aquaculture feed the above brand is an option, if you want a high quality food designed specifically for home aquarium fish I don't think you will find a better product than NLS smile.gif

Syd, you also said you are a scientist.. I am happy to fund a feed trial with some delicate Marines, i'll provide the fish, NLS and this aquaculture food. Would you be happy to do a control feed trial and post your findings?

Thanks.

#7 Melvin

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 07:33 PM

I use New Life Spectrum, along with other brands, and have done so for a prolonged duration of time. I quite enjoy the product and the most important critics, my fish, are well established on the same playing field as I. What always intrigued me about the ingredients list, was the heavy inclusion of vegetable and fruit extract;

Spinach, Broccoli, Red Pepper, Zucchini, Tomato, Pea, Red and Green Cabbage, Apple, Apricot, Mango, Kiwi, Papaya, Peach, Pear.

That list sounds unbelivably delicious to myself as my culinary palate is vast and easy pleasing. smile.gif But how often would my fish consume this in the wild?

Granted a very large percentage, if not all, of my fish are most likely that far bred from their native homelands that they wouldn't know the difference between Lake Malawi or Tanganyika. And I'm in no delusion on the nutritional benefits of these ingredients, especially for human consumption.

I've just always been curious as to how these ingredients came to value in a fishes diet, and what scientific testing went into establishing the benefits? Irregardless of my unanswered curiosity, my fish and I are quite content on consuming/using New Life Spectrum. smile.gif

Looking forward to more of your information Waruna.



#8 Bowdy

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 07:36 PM

For a post you didn't want to be about NLS you sure mentioned it a lot.

There is some good reading in there though.

#9 waruna

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 07:47 PM

QUOTE
For a post you didn't want to be about NLS you sure mentioned it a lot.


Sorry i didn't realize the bit about New Life and Pablo was on the article.. My bad, i have edited that post.

#10 Buccal

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 08:33 PM

Spinach, Broccoli, Red Pepper, Zucchini, Tomato, Pea, Red and Green Cabbage, Apple, Apricot, Mango, Kiwi, Papaya, Peach, Pear.

That list sounds unbelivably delicious to myself as my culinary palate is vast and easy pleasing. But how often would my fish consume this in the wild?

It's not about what they eat in the wild as to what's used in the food. It's the needed array of vitamins and proteins in the fishes diet that are found in many foods. Obviously the Nls company have extensively researched a myriad of vege and fruit to find these vitamins and proteins within. Not just essential vitamins and proteins, but also extra additional types. It's really one step further than just the requirements.

#11 Terry

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 12:41 AM

Thank you for this info Waruna, it confirms that the food I'm using/selling from Spectrum aquaculture is ideal for my situation. Please don't knock it if you haven't tried it. It is a very good fish food and doesn't cause problems like the other Spectrum which I have tried.

#12 RD.

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 11:02 AM

Wow, it's been so long I had forgotten that I had even wrote some of that. lol


Hi Terry - just curious, but is there no ingredient list supplied for the food that you sell?

I couldn't help but notice that according to your supplier this food was designed as a "Micro diet for weaning all types of fish from live feeds onto dry diets". That doesn't exactly equate to being a food that should be used as a staple long term. You do understand that, right? These foods are marketed specifically for one thing, to "wean" fish from live feed, on to dry feed. The vast majority of tropical fish that have to date been studied as to their specific dietary requirements, most certainly do not require 55% protein, and 9% lipids, at least not beyond the fry stage of life.

I don't need to try something, if it has already been proven in the past to cause long term health issues with numerous species of tropical fish kept in the hobby, anymore than I need to place my hand on a hot stove burner to understand what the result of that is going to be. smile.gif

#13 waruna

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 05:48 PM

Hi Melvin,

Sorry i missed your post yesterday, i will find out and get back to you smile.gif

QUOTE
it is a very good fish food and doesn't cause problems like the other Spectrum which I have tried.


When you worked at Midland you weren't the ONLY person who fed the fish correct? Obviously you didn't work there 7 days a week... It's been a while but i'm sure you remember working with Garry (Basto) at the same time, well guess what he is also a breeder and to this date continues to feed his fish NLS exclusively. The shop he moved on to Exotic also feeds NLS to all their fish, exclusively for the past 6 or so years! Remember Kevin (Malaga Aquariums) who also worked at Midland with you at one stage, he too when he opened his store continued feeding NLS at his store.

We supply to about 300 retailers and breeders in the country, 95% of these stores use NLS in some form or another. Vebas has a big sign stating "we use and recommend NLS". Both Pet Magic stores carries the food now, which you happen to work at one. As you know we do offer a 10 day money back guarantee, how come only 3 jars returned in almost eight years if what we claim isn't true? Terry, there are much much larger scale breeders than you who feed NLS with a lot of success. One particular breeder in NSW currently has a setup with 400 species of fish, and over 1000 tanks. No problems with NLS smile.gif. Another very impressive setup i have seen is Buccal's, should i keep going?!

To be honest there is nothing special about the aqua culture food you are selling/using. It doesn't guarantee anything, let alone say what's in it. Can this food help prevent lateral line disease, fin erosion in surgeonfish, and hole in the head on angelfish? I trialed and documented feeding NLS on species such as Tropheus and on delicate marine fish.

I was the first person in WA (2006) to feed a "high protein" pelleted food to Tropheus. Prior to NLS most fed Sera Flora. Back then i was constantly pointing out to people that Sera flora actually has more protein than NLS! Most people thought Sera Flora was "vege diet" simply because there was a pic of a Tropheus on the label!

Not only i posted pictures regularly i also invited members from this forum to my house so they can see for them selves:
http://www.perthcich...x...;f=5&t=5431

QUOTE (Fish Antics @ Sep 3 2006, 10:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Saw these fish in the flesh today. They look so much better in real life, Has pushed me towards giving these fish a try!

Well done on some stunning fish.

Tony biggrin.gif


Kevin from Malaga aqua who has kept and bred a large number of species (about 150 from memory) of fish could never keep Ts, he also came around and found the confidence to keep these fish, never lost a single Ts, the only difference was switching to NLS.

A few pics from my marine feed trial:











The trial was published on the marine forum, very well documented, as always with lots of pics. After 18 months i got bored with it. To be honest it wasn't a challenge as such. As you can see i have proved to myself and to others that the food does what it claims to.

So Terry, you might just understand why i am very passionate and confidant about my product.

Thanks for reading smile.gif


#14 Riggers

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 07:00 PM

Hi Waruna

Can I use the same pellet I feed my cichlids to feed my marine fish as well? Or is there 2 different types?

Cheers
Rigs

Great pics of the fish too!! I really like the moorish idol smile.gif

#15 Terry

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 07:05 PM

I don't like NLS, I like the food I am using. I must be a bad person.
If I say much more it gets edited by the mods, it's hard to argue a point if I can't say what I want.


#16 Riggers

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 07:14 PM

Terry your post was edited due to the commercial T&C'S of the forum. Please feel free to post your opinions, if you feel your posts are being unfairly edited then please PM me and I will look into it further smile.gif

Cheers
Rigs

#17 waruna

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 07:33 PM

Hello Rigs,

Thank you smile.gif The ingredients are the same in most of the NLS range, but percentages vary. If you are feeding say a clown fish or two yeah go ahead and feed them the Cichlid formula they will be fine. But if you are feeding tangs or largish Angels and so on i recommend feeding the Thera A. The normal Marine formula is fine too. What type of marines are they?


Terry as Rigs explained it there's nothing to worry about, so please have your say smile.gif I'm sure there are lots of people who doesn't use NLS, or have even heard of it.. You seem to think there is a "problem" with the food and lets just discuss this, that is all. It is clear from the number of views of this thread there are quite a few interested to hear both sides to this story, so let them make their own mind cool.gif. But what i'm NOT prepared do is take your word and believe there is a "problem" with NLS and the food you are using is something "very special" as you claim it to be..

Please, take your time and lets have a discussion smile.gif

#18 RD.

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 11:04 PM



With regards to the "fruit & veggie" extract .....


The purpose of adding a fruit & vegetable extract to the food was to glean certain naturally occurring vitamins, minerals, and bioactive compounds that are not always easy to duplicate in a test tube. These compounds simply enhance what is already a very well fortified vitamin & mineral premix that has been specially formulated for all New Life products.

The use of immunostimulants and bioactive compounds as an alternative to the drugs, chemicals and antibiotics currently being used by commercial aquaculture to control fish diseases in fish culture has attracted the attention of many researchers over the past decade. In the home aquaria these substances can also play a beneficial role in the overall health of our fish, especially fish that are under a constant state of stress due to aggression, breeding, etc. Conditions that would seldom take place in the wild, can be a constant in a glass box where a fish can only escape to the end of the box. The creator of NLS recognized how important this was decades ago, via his own commercial aquaculture facility, and the hands on raising of millions of fish.

While ingredients such as Spirulina, Garlic, Seaweed, Micro-Algae, and even exotic ingredients such as Ginseng, are not considered true probiotics, as they are not "live" organisms, they do in fact contain bioactive compounds, that have been proven to have a probiotic effect on fish. Some of these compounds have been shown to have biological effects in fish such as growth promotion, immunostimulation, anti-stress, anti-bacterial, anti-fungal, anti-virals, and even appetite stimulators.


The fruit & vegetable extract found in NLS has a small inclusion rate, it was simply added as an extra cushion, to a basic formula/recipe that already contained numerous raw ingredients that would fall into this category. Was it really needed? Probably not, but it certainly couldn't hurt. The goal of New Life has always been to get as much vitamins/minerals in their food derived from the raw ingredients themselves, instead of just relying on a commercial vitamin premix. This area is constantly reviewed, and constantly tweaked when needed.

Is all of this worth the extra cost, compared to lower cost alternative foods, that user lower cost feed ingredients?

That's a question that only YOU can answer.





#19 Melvin

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 12:38 AM

Cheers for the response RD. Plenty of information to satisfy the curiosity. smile.gif

#20 RD.

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 01:33 AM

No problem, glad to help Melvin.


This is an area of aquaculture that IMO many tropical fish food manufacturers largely ignore, where only minimum values are considered in an effort to keep the bottom line healthy. As an example, the following information is posted on the website of a major fish food manufacturer. •Contains Stabilized Vitamin C - Supports immune system health - Promotes a long, healthy life

Yet that particular formula contains a mere 75 mg/kg of Vitamin C, and most likely the vast majority of that Vitamin C comes from the vitamin premix, NOT from the raw ingredients. Most generic farm feeds contain far more vitamin c than that.

IMO the ideal situation is to have the vast majority of the vitamin & mineral content coming directly from the raw ingredients themselves, which in a quality food will be the case. The key factor regarding vitamins is their bio-availability to the fish, so a smart manufacturer will make sure that the raw ingredients themselves contain an ample amount of all of the various vitamins & minerals known to be required by most/all species of fish, and will supplement their raw ingredients to maximize the total bio-availability to the fish. Think of it as a safety net.

Below is a link to an interesting read regarding Vitamin C supplementation, and just how important it can be to the overall health of a fish. And that's just one vitamin ...........


http://www.dsm.com/e...it_c_health.htm

Just keep in mind that the vast majority of today's commercial foods no longer simply use ascorbic acid (a very unstable form of vitamin c) they now use a more expensive, but much more stable form of vitamin c (ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate ) to ensure that sufficient amounts are still present at post extrusion levels.

It is a common misconception that the majority of vitamins are destroyed during processing, which simply is not true. Some certainly, which is why it's a good idea to have a safety net in place. As long as a manufacturer takes into account that a certain percentage of some vitamins will be lost during the extrusion process, and slightly more during storage, and formulates their vitamin supplementation with this in mind, adjusting the ratios accordingly, there will be no nutitional issues in the final product.






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