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Ammonia Mystery


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#1 Donna

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 06:42 PM

Hi Everyone,

Would like some clues. My largest tanks have been up and running for some time now. Have fry in both tanks at the moment. I change the water every week without fail, at up to 30% but no more. I use a water conditioner and both tanks have healthy plant growth, with some very large plants in both tanks.

I haven't tested the water for some time so I decided to check today. Checked ammonia in both tanks, and to my horror, the 4 foot tank went the darkest colour green you can get on the API testing kit colour card! All fish, including Tetra showing no signs of distress or worry. I know what you are thinking, you are thinking faulty test kit, but the metre tank was barely yellow with 0ppm of ammonia from the same kit!

I understand if the water is soft, you can get away with high ammonia as it is in a different form. Could this be the reason everything isn't belly up?

I did an immediate 30% water change and went and bought new water conditioner just in case.

Tested the water 10 minutes ago, same reading, even after a 30% water change.

I have increased aeration and reduced feeding for now, but fry are very hungry sad.gif

I have ammo lock etc, should I put some of that in the tank?

I have also boosted biological filtration by moving a little hang on filter from a seeded tank into the tank. It is small, but it may help.

Any ideas welcomed.

Thanks,

Donna

#2 Ronny

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 06:49 PM

Hi Donna,

I remember vaguely at one of the meetigs Paul was talking at, someone mentioned that their water tests were showing high ammonia readings.
From what I remember it was the case that it is a differant type of ammonia like you stated.
It was mainly in certain areas but I haven't experienced such a problem yet.
Hopefully it's a one of thing and doesnt stay that way down south...

Other than that, I can't remember exactly what was said, sorry I cant help more.

#3 Krystal

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 06:50 PM

If your pH is extremely acidic then bacteria will not develop as fast as in say a pH of 7. Generally bacteria can barely survive at a pH of 6 or below....the only way to read this low is with a digital pH pen or a pH controller with probe. If this is the tank with the amano soil then it would be worthwhile checking this.....If it is ridiculously low then this would be the reason your reading is so high....theres not enough bacteria to convert it to nitrite and then to nitrate.

What filter is on the tank Donna? Is the water being forced over the media or could it be bypassing the media? Any missing fish? Anyone feeding the tank whilst you are not watching?

#4 Donna

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 07:00 PM

Hi Krystal,

Yep, good point about the low pH and the low nitrifying bacteria growth. It would seem that the very conditions that lead to slow growth of nitrifying bacteria, could also be keeping the fish alive. How ironic. I don't know if it is ridiculously low, will check and post the pH soon.

I have been overfeeding a little because I have two new featherfins and I wasn't sure how much to feed them so I wanted to be sure. One krib is missing and one Bristlenose (small) so I wouldn't expect that to cause too much trouble and they have been missing for a while.

As you advised, I got an Aqua Clear hang on filter. It has been running for some time. I unblocked it today as there was something large in the tube thing. I also have just to be safe a couple of little internal sucker filters, and one with two sponges in it and they have been good.

Thanks for the advice everyone, will post pH. Strange it is still high after a water change?

Will keep you all posted.

Thanks,

Donna



#5 Krystal

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 07:07 PM

Keep us posted...
You can use ammo lock but it will only bind the ammonia...not get rid of it. Dont over dose with the Ammo Lock because there is an ingredient called thiosulphate that is added and an overdose of this can create a 'slime' like coating over your filter media....again preventing maximum bacteria development.

Bacteria love certain surfaces, temperature, darkness and certain water parameters...we will never fully understand it.

Just keep doing partial water changes until it comes down, if you have done one and it is still off the chart then imagine how high it may be.

If you can do a thorough gravel clean and lift up any rocks and ornaments, removing any decaying matter as you go.

#6 Hydonia

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 07:27 AM

Also remember you need to do several water changes to bring any type of reading down. When ever I had issue with high readings I have done a 20% everyday ( used aged water in a bucket with an air stone) for about a week, it will normally show a decrease then. It can take a while to show lower readings especially if the reading is off the chart.


#7 Donna

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 10:34 AM

Good point Hydonia, and will do as you suggest.

However, I am still puzzled as to why, after a large water change the reading did not decrease. It seems really odd to me. There should have been some dilution wouldn't you think?
How would the levels get that high again so quickly after a water change? These are some questions I need to ask.

The tank is far from overstocked......two featherfins, two firemouths, three bristlenose (found the missing one), one adult male kribensis and some kribensis juvies. It is reasonably well planted with some large plants in the tank (three large swords) gravel substrate and wood and rocks. It is a four foot tank.

Yes, I have been overfeeding because I can't get a handle on what to feed the featherfins, but would this account for such ridiculously high levels of ammonia?

Last night I put a bag of zeolite in the hang on filter and will check the levels again soon to see how it is all going. Still need to check pH which I suspect will be acidic but again, shouldn't be too low, but must be otherwise the fish would be belly up.

Thanks for the replies,

Donna

#8 Cawdor

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 11:08 AM

My guess is that the levels were so high that it went beyond what the test can show. You mentioned it was dark green, so if the test goes to for example "100" and the levels were actually "200", it would show as 100. Then you did a waterchange of say 50%, so the 200 were reduced to 100. That would still be the maximum the test can indicate, hence you see no change even though you actually halved your ammonia levels!

#9 Donna

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 11:16 AM

Hi Tim,

Yes, that's a scenario I did consider after writing that last essay smile.gif My equipment isn't really finely calibrated so I guess I am dealing with ball park smile.gif and the explanation you have given is certainly reasonable.

I guess I am just lucky the fish are all happy. However, just as a precaution, I am going to relocate the juvies and the BNs for now. The male krib is far too aggressive to put in a community tank, and the featherfins can stay put. This will at least reduce the bio load while I get things back on track.

Thanks,

Donna

#10 Krystal

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 01:41 PM

Donna, can you please check you KH as well....bacteria need some hardness in the water wink.gif

#11 Donna

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 03:42 PM

Yes Krystal, will do right now...

#12 Donna

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 03:49 PM

kH = 5

pH = 6

Sounds ok....just remind me with the kH test, it is how many drops it takes to make the water yellow in 5mls?....it has been a while since I did a kH test nad that is how I did it.

Thanks,

Donna

#13 Aquotix Aquariums

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 04:06 PM

Thats right, changes from blue to yellow.

Krystal

#14 Donna

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 07:49 PM

Hi everyone,

Did a massive water change today and just checked ammonia....it is yellow....hooray. I moved all my juvenile kribs out and the Firemouths so perhaps the reduced bioload has helped a little, but the tank is far from overstocked so it will remain a mystery as to what caused such a huge spike. I set up a hospital tank just in case, but everything is going ok.

Will just need to watch it closely I suppose.

Thanks to those who commented.

Regards,

Donna

#15 Codfather

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 05:04 PM

Hi Donna,

I've often found that chlorine neutralizers interfere with ammonia test kits to give false high readings.
Did you change the brand or amount of neutralizer added at your last water change?
It's easy to check if you want. Just test the reading of a water sample, add neutralizer then retest for ammonia.

HTH

#16 Donna

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 11:07 PM

Actually, I did change my water conditioner, they were out of my usual brand locally, and I actually used more than usual because I was terrified of the chlorine interferring with the biological filter because I was unsure of the brand.

I will give it a go...will be interesting to see the results.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Regards,

Donna

#17 Brett

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Posted 14 July 2009 - 08:04 PM

Hello Donna,

Been following this post with interest. Have you got any clues as to what was going on yet?

I was surprised that your fish showed no signs of illness, if your water was as dire as the test kit indicated.

Cheers
Brett


#18 Donna

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Posted 18 July 2009 - 05:42 PM

Hi Brett and everyone,

I have been following this with interest as well. The story gets stranger and stranger. On Tuesday I decided to drain the tank completely...wash the gravel and start from scratch. I have a 1500 liter an hour filter that I have hung in my heavier stocked tank in readiness for the inevitable spike of nitrite and ammonia that can be used in the recently set up tank as soon as there is some ammonia for the bacteria to munch on.

In the recently emptied tank/set up tank I am running an aquaclear hang on the side filter and some internal filters just for good measure. Both of these you would assume would be seeded as well as they came from the established tank before I emptied it, although it is feasible that they were not operating.

The story now is that the tank only has two catfish (synodontis e's medium size about 10 cms) one adult male krib, one juvenile krib and two black neons. That is it in a four foot tank. Well, would you think that the ammonia would have time to spike yet? Well checked today.....ammonia is once again the darkest green reading. The pH is still high 7.8 because it is recently set up. The kH is 3 which I guess is a tad low, but it is not non existent.

I would have thought there would not have been time for the ammonia to get to that level? Particularly with such low stocking. Also, I have been feeding the fish really sparingly. The tank is clean....I didn't even put the rocks or wood back in for fear of them having absorbed high levels of ammonia. All I put in were resin ornaments for hiding places and replanted the crypts and let the anubias float. Aeration is cranked.

Does anyone have any idea at all what I should do? Obviously I will need to start water changing again, but what is going on? It usually takes a while for newly set up tanks to spike, so what is going on?

So in summary:

kH = 3
pH = 7.8
ammonia = off the dial
Temp 27C

Fish...alive and seemingly fine...no damaged fins, heavy breathing etc etc

Ideas welcome.

Regards,

Donna

#19 Mr_docfish

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Posted 18 July 2009 - 06:01 PM

Ammonia levels above 2ppm will not help the bacteria to multiply (ammonia is used as a cleaning product) so try to get the levels below 2ppm. Try not feeding the fish at all (they will live for 2 weeks without food... the fish may show good behaviour now... but the damage is occurring internally.... eventually they will show the effects.
Best to water change the tank until the ammonia is below 1ppm, and don't feed.
Keep the water changes going (every day if you have to) to keep the levels below 2ppm.

btw,
What filter media is in the filter????




#20 Donna

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Posted 18 July 2009 - 06:09 PM

QUOTE
What filter media is in the filter????



Oh, my mistake,on inspection, I notice it is an Aqua One filter...darn, I was advised to buy Aqua Clear...stuffed up there. Media? There are two slide in items. One I think is a carbon filter and the other is a plastic thing.

Thanks again,

Donna




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