28 replies to this topic

[Neakit]

you need to feed bacteria to creat a cycle, if yo u have no food do you not die?? I have put fish in straight away every time i have setup a fresh water aquarium, there wasn't many and they were some hardy types but they were there from the start.

[Donna]

It's true, you need ammonia to feed the bacteria, so you either need fish in the tank producing ammonia, or add ammonia itself with no fish until the nitrification process begins.

You cannot cycle a tank without a source of ammonia of some kind. Even if you "seed" the tank with some kind of product that supposedly provides an instant bacteria colony in the filter, fish producing ammonia or ammonia will still be needed to provide food for the bacteria.

It is called a cycle because everything is related and cyclic to an extent, however, it is a little inaccurate because nitrates are the end product and must be removed by water changes because they cannot be broken down further. They are not dealt with by any "cycle" and although they are less toxic to fish, they will lead to ill health if not diluted by regular water changes.

The new tank troubles start when the bio load outstrips the nitrifying capabilities of the bacteria in the tank. At some point in time, the ammonia is going to get to the stage in a new tank where there is no bacteria colony, or it has not had time to establish and it will be dangerous to your fish. When that is established, and the ammonia is being converted to nitrites, the nitrites will spike because it is a different bacteria that breaks that down. Again, in order to stimulate the growth of that bacteria, a source of nitrite is needed, and then that colony needs to establish itself.

To me, it is next to useless "seeding" until there is a source of ammonia. So watch your new tank levels for ammonia. When you can detect it, that would be the time to put your old filter sponge in the new filter and stimulate the growth of bacteria. Any chance of "seeding" will be missed right at the beginning because there is not enough ammonia in the tank to support bacteria growth.

Some aquarists will dispute the value of seeding fullstop either with gravel or products because in their experience it has not been seen to work.

Filter media from an established tank is your best bet, or even using a filter from an existing tank. Even then, it will still need ammonia to maintain the health of the bacteria colony.

There are really good articles on this all over the net, and right here on this site. IMO if you have no established filter or media you must cycle with a small amount of fish to establish the ammonia converting and nitrite converting bacteria and then you can add fish really slowly so the bacteria can multiply and rise to the occasion.

There are much better articles than my explanation, and I urge any new aquarists who may be reading this post to read carefully and make sure you understand the process.

It will save a lot of heartache.

Regards,

Donna

[Brett]

Would I be correct in assuming that my tank is close to being cycled because the nitrate levels are starting to rapidly increase ?

Just a quick off topic reply for Troy. No your tank is not yet cycled as your Nitrite levels are still increasing. Which makes me wonder where all this nitrate is coming from, perhaps the plant fertiliser?

Cheers
Brett

[Mr_docfish]

...
I read about fishless cycling when I was setting up my first tank and was trying everywhere to find clear ammonia - but none. I thought it was because I lived in the south west (not Perth), but it is good to know that even Perth doesnt seem to hold any.
...

Phone around... I'm sure if you called Aquotix, and asked for Ammonium Chloride., you will have found some, with instructions too (if you ask nicely)!!

Just a quick off topic reply for Troy. No your tank is not yet cycled as your Nitrite levels are still increasing. Which makes me wonder where all this nitrate is coming from, perhaps the plant fertiliser?

Cheers
Brett

The term "cycled" is very loose. You will find that in tanks that have only a trace of Ammonia, they will 'cycle' quickly as compared to tanks that have a high load or high Ammonia level to start with. This is due to the time it takes to grow enough bacteria to cope with the amount of Ammonia and the resultant Nitrite. You will find that the Nitrate level is the result of the Nitrite being converted (though not completely, as there is only a limited number of bacteria at the moment). So in the context of "cycled" the cycle is complete - converting the Ammonia into Nitrate via Nitrite. The only thing is, we are waiting for the bacterial numbers to increase to cope with the relatively high load or level of Ammonia and the resultant Nitrite.
So all is not lost, the cycle is complete, just a waiting game now for the bacteria to multiply a bit more - might take another few days or a week or so.
Adding bacterial preparations will speed up the process, but the bacteria strains are there, and you just have to have patience.
I would not add any fish to a tank that has any level of Nitrite, even a trace, so hold out until it reaches 0.


Oliver

[troyww]

I would not add any fish to a tank that has any level of Nitrite, even a trace, so hold out until it reaches 0.


Oliver

Thanks for the info .
I'm stumped as to whats going on now !
I'm getting ammonia=0 , Nitrite=0 and my Nitrate is also reading zero !
What the hell is going on ? . The fert that I'm using supposedly has zero nitrates of which I've only thrown a couple of cap fulls in anyway .
I stopped adding cycle after the first week .
There is now 15 neon/cardinal tetras and 4 blue rams in the tank . They all seem happy enough with the tetras blue colour changing to a darker blue .
I put in another half a dozen plants in and that's when the nitrates disappeared ........
Really confused . Could there of been something in the substate the plants were in ?

[Mr_docfish]

...I put in another half a dozen plants in and that's when the nitrates disappeared ........

That's what happens. Plants will use the available nitrogen in the tank. It all sounds good now.

[troyww]

That's what happens. Plants will use the available nitrogen in the tank. It all sounds good now.

Sweet thanks for that . Should I use a fert with some nitrogen then because of the low "bioload"(technical term-probably used incorrectly) ?
19 fish in the tank but they are all really small in a 160 L tank .
And if the plants are using all the nitrate do I just do a water change once a week regardless as I was under the impression that you let the nitrate levels get to ~40-50ppm before doing a water change .
Deliberately didn't try to max out the tank space as I wanted to keep the tank as low maintenance as possible while keeping the fish happy and maybe even breed .

[Mr_docfish]

If there little or no nitrogen in the tank, then you will have to add it in some form, either in the gravel in tablet form (if you don't already have a nutrient rich gravel), or as a liquid/powdered fert. or just feed the fish a little more.
Keep the nitrates around 5-15ppm, no higher than 30ppm (lower for some touchy plant species).
I would still do water changes regardless how the tank is looking, this gets rid of any accumulation of any extra organics/inorganics.

[troyww]

Thanks for your help guys .
Heres my tank after your help
 bigtanksmall.jpg   162.02KB   30 downloads

Water is a bit yellow due to the log . I replaced the bags of carbon in the 4 stage top filter with Matrix and bio-zorb which helped a lot but it still keeps pouring tannins out .

I started using ferts (flourish)and started to get a bit of algae so I bought a few Algae eaters . The tank was spotless in 3 days but the bastards are chasing my rams around and when I tried to catch them to dispose of them they proved bastards to catch . They are CAE not SAE which I worked out too late . The Vallis is going good , swordplant died off but has come back well with good root growth but is going dark green along the veins and base of the leaves The other couple of plants are growing very fast at least the one at the front of the tank are where there is more light but are a bit scraggly . I have a 3X24W T5 HO on order from Guppies that should fit in to replace the 2X13W lights in there now which I hope will bush out the plants .

My tetras have coloured up really well but my rams look nothing like they do in pics and look a bit scrawny , they are still very young I think . They definately don't like the CAE which have fattened up a lot and seem to be noticeably bigger in a mere week ! . My PH is about 7.8 which is from what I've read is way too high too get the rams happy enough to breed , which I'd like to do . Sooo I ordered an R/O unit off ebay and some Seachem SA cichlid salt and trace which should suit both the tetras and Blue Rams .



Heres my old goldfish bowl that currently has a platy and a couple of fry last time I looked . It's a bit cloudy because I put the rocks in today , but it's normally crystal clear .
 littletank.jpg   2.98MB   23 downloads
I'm using a guppy2X24W that I was going to be using in my bigger tank but after reading that you really need 2W/G I thought it would serve well on this tank and order the bigger one for the bigger tank . I think its working really well as my plants are booming and theres already a few new little vallis and they have grown at least 3 inches in 2 weeks ! . Any ideas on slower growing plants anyone ? The Filter in the tank is one I bought ages ago and from memory it is an Aquaone that does 8 or 9 hundred Litres per hour . After all the fry dissapeared I thought I'd slow the hurrricane down by adding the retic pipe from the filter outlet to the sponge . Seems to of worked well as the remaining two are starting to show some colour and look very healthy . The Platy is not touching flakes but is constantly pigging out on algae and has a constant stream of poop , I assume she's eating for more than one .