46 replies to this topic

[Den]

Dear Dave

Your comments are rediculous, completely misguided through your lack of proper interpretation of my statements and quite offensive. But its OK, as you are only harming your own credibilty with such remarks.

Please read my statements carefully, you are putting words into my mouth that I have not said.

Where have I said that I believe it cures cancer? :

What I have said is that other people have made these claims and there are various testominals from people who claim to have successfully treated cancer with it. I have also stated that I have seen improvements in the person I am treating with it which is true, I dont know wether its curing this cancer or not - yet, its only been a little over a week, but I will find out next month when they take the xrays before the operation, we'll know whether its still there or not or if the size has changed. There is a big difference between what I have said and your interpretation.

Currently the treatment on offer from doctors is a one month waiting list before they hack out a chunck of his intestines, are we in the 21st century? because most medicine seems to still be in the 19th century and I've heard this same statement come from doctors and surgeons. Call me arrogant if you like but I stand by my statements.

I'm not sure why I am being put on trial here, this product is still very new to me and I am still trying to learn as much as i can about it. I'm just putting it out there, feel free to research it and find the answers for yourself if you are interested in it. I was hoping to attract some interesting discussion however it appears this topic has mainly attracted lazy sceptics and pessemists. If you want to knock it get of your lazy backside and do some research and put something real behind your comments if you want anyone to take you seriously.

Cheers
Den

[DR14GoNF14SH]

Hi Den,
Saying "I am treating a cancer patient" reeks of arrogance and foolishness to say the least but I guess if the patient is willing to let someone unqualified to treat them then perhaps they are not in possession of their right mind anyway (we may even see you on A Current Affair for taking advantage of someone for their will).

To successfully cure a once terminally ill cancer sufferer can only be determined as cured once they have lived to the age of 90 odd and not died from cancer.

To say the things you do about surgeons and doctors is incredible stupid and shortsighted, some of the greatest minds and curers of this world have been medics and to dismiss these is arrogance personified.

If you believe Chlorine Dioxide can cure all, good luck to you but at least have the decency not to bring foolish comments such as yours into a discussion.

Regards,

Dave.

P.S. If you can find me 10 doctors and scientists who have not got internet qualifications who say that Chlorine Dioxide cures cancer then I will believe you.

It seems the only foolish comments are highlighted above ^^^

why must this turn into a personal attack? i was enjoying reading this topic until now, dave...try discussing the topic at hand in a mature manner without the name calling etc... spoils the fun for everyone and quite frankly is uncalled for...

e.

[cobby]

Spot on E

I was finding this very intresting never for one momment did i think Den was claiming to have a cure for Cancer

Cheers Cobby

[PCS_Committee]

We would like to remind all users of the T & C:

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1. The Perth Cichlid Society Forums is a site intended for people of all ages and skill levels to come learn and share their experiences. Profanity, insults, personal attacks, or posts of this nature will not be tolerated.

Note particularly: "share their experiences" - Den is sharing his experiences with us. Do not post personal attacks just because you do not agree with his views. Further posts in this vein will be deleted.

[Den]

Thanks e, Cobby & Comittee, although I'd prefer if no posts are deleted, personal attacks dont worry me, I like to see them left up, let these people expose themselves so we know what kind of people they are

[sydad]

Hi Den,

I originally had no intention of responding in this thread. However, on reflection I feel that i need to make a couple of points.

Firstly, you should be aware that the use of chlorine dioxide and the supposed wonderful powers it possesses is nothing new. Detailed perusal of medical history will reveal that every 20 years or so since the late 1800s some entrepreneur/ quack/ snake-oil salesman / alternative medicine advocate / desperate or ill-advised person (select or create your own category.... I'm sure you get the idea) has proclaimed the wonderful powers of this simple chemical.

The hype has always, in the past, rapidly vanished. I'm enough of a cynic to believe that the probable reason for this is that the ill-advised use of this substance has eliminated enough of it's victims to persuade purveyors to see expensive litigation looming, and to retire to safer occupations. I must admit that I have found no cases of such litigation, but then I haven't looked very hard: I prefer just to remain a cynic. The point is that the cyclical nature of the prominence of this, and other, "miraculous", but highly dubious "treatments" is well recognised in the medical profession.

Chlorine dioxide will certainly act efficiently as a disinfectant, and this would explain why it may assist in the elimination of a sore throat, but in case you hadn't noticed, such afflictions are invariably self-limiting: so the disappearance of such a symptom is of no great wonder. But talking about wondering, I wonder what cellular damage may be engendered by this "treatment". Sorry about the parentheses, but as I said, I'm a cynic and will remain so until I've seen appropriate clinical trials prove that this substance can actually be deemed as a treatment.

Secondly, the explanation supplied by the current purveyors (on the web-site you provided the link for) is pure scientific nonsense. of the kind generally described as bumf. It looks good to the uneducated, but lacks substance and evidence of scientific fact. It is however good for a laugh, and laughing is supposedly therapeutic, so I have to concede that some good may come even of such nonsence.

Thirdly, your assertion (even if made obliquely) that the medical profession is virtually useless, is frankly insulting. No-one associated with this profession will pretend that orthodox western medicine has all the answers for anything; but to claim that doctors have no sucesses, ignores the fact that many people are alive today only because of the success of some orthodox treatments... both medical and surgical. Consider the enormous number of lives saved by antibiotics, and by such procedures as coronary artery bypass surgery. This is but a small example. Surely your contention that the medical profession is effectively useless, is tongue-in-cheek (a situation remarkably similar to foot-in-mouth at times).

Finally, I point out that although not a medico myself, in my employment as a medical scientist I frequently saw the results of uninformed self treatment and quack treatments provided by the unqualified. This in no way criticises alternative medicine practice provided by numerous persons actually qualified in various areas, and who strive for the highest ideals.

A question here. Should the "miraculous" substance you have elected to use prove to be actually harmful, and to leave you with health problems, would you seek another such snake-oil and risk further exacerbation of your problem, or would you front-up to your GP, admit that you have dabbled with an unproven "medicine", and seek his/her aid in returning to a healthy state, while acknowledging your error and the possibility that such aid may be too late?

Cynical me,

Syd.

[Den]

Hi Syd

Firstly thanks for your comments,

I agree about some of my comments being a bit rough and over the top regarding doctors, I probably should paint my critcism a more nicer colour, I'm sure there are plenty of great doctors out there, I just havent met any yet. Regarding antibiotics yes what a great discovery, however we ofter hear stories about doctors misusing and overprescribing them and in many cases causing more harm than good by creating superbugs etc.

Regarding my sore throat and tonsils, I have had this problem for many years, I get it almost every month and it lasts for about 2 weeks, I have seen at least 4 GP's about it, none of them have been able to do a thing to help me, they tell me to take a lozenger. When I did the gargle I had had the problem for 3 days, and it was really fully blown and raging, after the gargle it was gone it less than a few hours and has not returned, in fact I've never felt better in that area for a long time.

You are right, if I overdosed or had problems with this stuff I'd wait the usual 3-5 day waiting list so I could see to my GP, who'd no doubt tell me the name of the condition, tell me to take a panadol, give me a bill and that would be the end of it as usual. Sorry if it sounds cynical but that is my usual experience with these guys. Another thing that cheeses me off about doctors, if you take your car to a mechanic and he looks at your car for 5 minutes and says he cant fix it does he give you a bill?.

Regading the people I have given this to, I have not recommended it, I have shown it to them and asked them to make their own decision, we did it together on very small dosage to see if there would be any negative reaction, at this stage have not noticed any side effects, although there could be long term side effects we dont really know, from all we hear is either people saying there are no side effects and its safe, and others simply saying they dont know, well there are hundreds of chemicals in the same boat eaten by people everday, food colourings, additives preservatives etc.

Regarding your critiscism of the website it would be nice if you could back up some of your criticisms with proper examples, I am particularly interested in Jim Humbles comments to the critic, is Jim full of crap? It would be great if you could point out some examples. Like I said I'm not for or against this stuff, I just want to get to the truth and know if any of the claims are true.

Jim and the critic:
http://phaelosopher.wordpress.com/

What about this doctor chemist in the first video? is he talking truth or is he a hoax?, who knows if hes even qualified? would appreciate your proffessional opinion. Thanks,

Doctor/chemist video:
http://www.miraclemi...t.com.au/videos

Cheers
Den

[mtchye]

Against my better judgement I read the critic vs Humble page. Have you read it in its entirety Den? Can you really put any credence into the research of someone who could not string a sentence together legibly, relies on the standard response of "read my book" or "read the literature" in the majority of his responses and posts no links to CREDIBLE research?

The reason these internet cure-alls work is they appeal to the attractions to "easy fixes" that we as a species possess. These scams have been around for ages and unfortunately, typically prey on those least informed or most desperate. These schemes typically have the following characteristics:

1) Reliance on thousands of positive testimonials - anecdotal evidence which cannot easily be verified even if you could consider these credible.

2) Pseudo scientific jargon focusing only on the elements of the theories that suit what they are spruiking. The average layman does not have the depth of understanding of the science and therefore cannot dispute these theories. The appeal is where the spruiker talks up extremely simplistic concepts which may be true to a certain extent but which are only one small part of the overall picture. When challenged, said spruiker will merely repeat the small part of his theory which is true and conveniently ignore all the other factors that come into play when you are talking about 100's of different diseases with different pathological pathways.

3) Refer to people in positions of credibility - most people educated in these fields would recognise the stupidity of these scams and would not bother to take the trouble to go out there and try to prove whether or not some team of fictional doctors in a remote part of Africa where some dictator has conveniently ousted all those who have helped cure malaria. Come on. Seriously??? The people who will believe this stuff will come into this all guns blazing to defend their beliefs whilst most who recognise it for what it is will not be bothered addressing some guy on the internet.

4) Rely on the principle that it hasn't been proven to be untrue, therefore it must be true. Find any coincidental anecdotal evidence to support your theory. A cough that would normally heal itself, yes it must've been the MMS that cured it. Abdominal pain stemming from a bowel cancer - these are often cyclical in nature. The power of the placebo effect should also not be underestimated. UNLESS something is proven to work and is easily repeatable in blind tests by parties without vested interests in the outcomes of the trials, I would always remain cynical.

This thread has the potential to degenerate very quickly into a slanging match between those with a scientific background and those who prefer more alternative approaches. If you want to proceed with this I suggest that the proponents of MMS post a legible, theory of the chemistry behind how MMS is purported to cure just ONE disease. Please include detailed mechanism or pathway by which MMS effects the cure and not just a generic statement like "read the literature". The onus is on the proponents of the theory to actually provide one to debate. FYI "MMS oxidises viruses" is NOT a theory. I have quoted an excerpt from Jim Humble's reply to the sceptic below. I do not see any medical or chemical explanations in his responses. The majority appear to be nonsensical rants with some fancy chemical buzz words he seems to like mentioning in passing like "oxidiser", "acid" and "alkaline" and strangely.. "match" or "pin" heads. These appear to be the extent of Hunble's chemical knowledge. Also, despite Humble referring the critic to "literature" several times I note that no links to any specific peer reviewed "literature" is ever given. Is he suggesting that we should read ALL the medical literature out there before being qualified to debunk his theories? I use the word theory very loosely.

WRONG AGAIN MR. 96341. IN MALAWI WE ONLY DID CLINICAL TRIALS IN THE PRISON WITH 100 % CURE RATE. THE MALAWI GOVERNMENT ALSO MATCHED OUR TESTS AND GOT THE SAME RESULTS. IN MY BOOK, I GAVE ORGANIZATIONS THAT DID THE BLOOD TESTING AND THE PEOPLE WITH WHOM YOU CAN STILL CONTACT. THERE ARE ALSO PEOPLE IN THE OTHER COUNTRIES THAT YOU CAN CONTACT, AND IN MY BOOK THERE ARE COPIES OF DOCUMENTS FROM GOVERNMENTS. IN MALAWI ALL OF THE PEOPLE IN THE GOVERNMENT HAVE BEEN REPLACED BY THE PRESIDENT, BUT THE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THE TESTS ARE STILL THERE AND ABLE TO BE CONTACTED. BUT THE EASIER THING IS TO SIMPLY READ MY BOOK. THE PROOF IS THERE. DR. HESSELINK HAS TAKEN MORE THAN 2000 RESEARCH PAPERS CONCERNING CHLORINE DIOXIDE AND IT’S ABILITY TO CURE MALARIA FROM THE INTERNET. HE HAS DESCRIBED THE SCIENCE AND CHEMISTRY VERY CAREFULLY. HE HAS LISTED 160 SUCH PAPERS IN MY BOOK IN CHAPTER 22. THERE ARE LOTS OF DOCTORS USING MMS NOW. I CHALLENGE YOU OR ANY DOCTOR OR ANY SCIENTIST TO SHOW ME WHERE I AM WRONG. YOU CAN’T BECAUSE I HAVE THE SCIENCE AND CHEMISTRY CORRECT. READ MY BOOK INSTEAD OF TALKING WITH NO KNOWLEDGE AT ALL.–JimHumble

I'm sorry but this sort of scam always appeals to and preys on those who are most susceptible - people who are desperate or terminally ill, those who have had bad experiences with the medical profession, those out for a quick profit etc. I am not saying the medical profession is perfect and there are plenty of mistakes made, but to condemn the whole profession with some conspiracy theory about keeping the world sick is just incredible. I have worked in the profession before and believe me those trying their hardest to get a cure for cancer would like nothing better than to succeed. You will also find that they often do not benefit significantly by making it their life's work. More often than not they would make more money in private practice rather than research. Most are genuinely out there to help their fellow man.

Cheers
Vincent

[Den]

Hi Vincent

Thanks for your comments

On first read of your wise but "speculative" comments I do not find anything you say convincing enough for me to prove its a scam. I've found some websites of Doctors using it in the USA, I need to somehow to varify if these guys are scammers or not.

This US Government agency below refers to Chlorine Dioxide as an oxidiser.

http://www.atsdr.cdc...iles/tp160.html

I'm not defending Jim but I agree with you he certainly is short on communication skills, lets not forget his old age though. You know some of the greatest minds in history were a little scrambled too and many inventors that I know also come accross like Jim, their minds work a little differently to the norm. Jim actually spells alkaline incorreclty at first in one of his videos and then corrects it, surely a scammer would edit it and do another take. I think he's sincere in wanting to help people, however I need to find more info from people with a credible background who have worked with this chemical.

You know when it comes to scammers they are usually very sharp, fine tuned and seductive, Jim comes across about as sharp as a bowling ball, even still I doubt he's a scammer, perhaps he's just a silly old man who doesnt have a clue, I dont know yet.

Its funny how people educated in science seem to walk away from anything that looks too simple, I think they have an inbuilt rational that tells them the answers to a complex problem must be a complex solution, when possibly the answer may be simple and staring them right in the face. I'm not saying that this product is a solution, on the contrary, I'm trying to prove wether its a scam, but its just funny how 3 people with scientific backgrounds here all admit they avoid reading into products making claims like this one and judge it as a scam without properly investigating it, I ask how will you ever know the truth?.


Cheers
Den

[Cawdor]

Its funny how people educated in science seem to walk away from anything that looks too simple, I think they have an inbuilt rational that tells them the answers to a complex problem must be a complex solution,

I can only speak for myself, but one of the main reasons I am sceptical (apart from the "miracle" part of the name) is that if it truly was that simple and, like Syd said, has been around for a long time, then you would expect that proper scientific studies would have been done by now. The lack of independent scientific data suggests that it was not deemed worthy of studying. Would you knock back the chance of getting the Nobel Prize for curing cancer? Why are the big pharma companies not marketing this and making a fortune? The answer I believe is that it has been looked at and it was decided that it wasn't promising, for whatever reason.
Until there is a scientific paper that describes how this works and affects cells in your body, all that is there is anecdotal evidence - which in science counts for nothing.

[Poncho]

Den, how much of that US government link did you read?

If you read the public health statement it states that through scientific testing it has been shown that Chlorine dioxide can cause respiratory problems, mouth, throat and stomach irritation and effects brain development in children. It is also quite possible that other detrimental effects could also occur but weren't necessarily tested for in that particular study.

If there is scientific evidence that this can be a harmful substance but no scientific evidence that it can actually be a cure for these illnesses and diseases, wouldn't you err on the side of caution and say "I think I'll wait until the research is done before I put a potential (I would say likely) harmful substance in my body." My skeptisism is borne from the fact that a terminally ill patient won't wait and will happily spend money on a product for that chance. There are too many examples of people taking advantage of that scenario by producing bogus products, which is why rational people as well as the scientific world demand proof of such claims.

I'm a bit annoyed that you are implying I am lazy for not researching a product that you are interested in. In a nutshell I have said that I smell a rat and after a cursory glance over the companies website, the clandestine behaviour regarding their experimental data only heightened my suspicions. Unfortuately I am no where near as tolerant as Vincent and could not bear to read any more propaganda whilst continuing to search for any real proof that this works.

Again don't take this personally but it is one thing to be open minded, it is another to be naive!

[Den]

Hi Brett

The statement about being lazy wasnt really aimed at you, but I guess its got you reading? however the remark "put some substance behind your arguement if you want to knock it" was aimed at you in a friendly way, both remarks I mean in a friendly but challenging way

You've raised some important "possibilities" about the product, I highlight the word "can" in your quote, as there is a big difference between the word "can" and "will".

Scientific testing it has been shown that Chlorine dioxide can cause respiratory problems, mouth, throat and stomach irritation and effects brain development in children.

Now lets put some things into perspective here:

Chlorine dioxide can cause respiratory problems

If you breath Chlorine as a gas which is put in our drinking water, it causes death! but I understand you need to also avoid the fumes of Chlorine dioxide(MMS) which can be harmfull but still not as harmful as Chlorine gas.

Scientific testing has been shown that Chlorine dioxide can cause mouth, throat and stomach irritation

I have not experienced any irriration, neither have any of the people I know who are using it, but if you are one of the people that "can" get irritation I guess you would need to make a decision on using it depending on the extent of the irritation. You know chillis or a hot currie can also irritate the same areas, in fact I believe the irriation from a hot chilli generally continues even further past the stomach! )o(

Scientific testing it has been shown that can effect brain development in children.

So can many other medicines currently prescribed by doctors on the market, even excess vitamin A can cause birth defects. "If" this product became a varified and recognised treatment for cancer judging from the current listed side effects of Chlorine dioxied when compared to current treatments, the current treatments appear to be potentially far greater damaging, I believe if you check that most current cancer treatments such a chemotherapy and radiation pose great if not greater risks and side effects.

I would say from my limited knowledge that almost every medicine and vaccine on Earth that I have ever heard of has potential side effects, in fact there are many medications currently prescribed that "can" have serious to lethal side effects. My friends 28year old son died just last week from using a medication prescribed by a specialist doctor and taking it at a prescribed dosage level, I hate to use this tragic incidence as an example however I need to in order to point out the dangers that also exist in prescribed medicine.

So overall Brett, nothing in that statement really should make the basis of condemning this product as a medicine.

Your comment about me being naive, thats water off a ducks back, I need make no effort to debase you, your words and arguments speak for themselves my friend and like that of your scientific collegues there is no weight in your comments that disproves the science behind it, I cant approve or disprove it myself right now as I dont have the educational background, but I'm making efforts to learn about it and not turn my back on it because of my lack of knowledge and uncertainty, my aim is to learn enough to become certain about it one way or other!

If there is scientific evidence that this can be a harmful substance but no scientific evidence that it can actually be a cure for these illnesses and diseases, wouldn't you err on the side of caution and say "I think I'll wait until the research is done before I put a potential (I would say likely) harmful substance in my body."

Have you actually varified anything in this statement? particularly "there is no scientific evidence that proves it can cure?"

Brett I think you like the others above must admit that you dont have the knowledge or data to argue your negative stance properly, but I'm sure you have the intellect to aquire it.

The reasons why I have put this up here and for my continued interest in this product is because I have first hand experiences using it that have very much impressed/amazed me and I think its worth investigating further. I have put it up here to give others the same chance to make their own investigations and decisions. Scientifically educated people seem to think they can put up a weak derogatory statement and not expect to be questioned and challenged, and fair enough if you guys feel its a waste of time thankyou and goodby, but dont knock a substance you have all shown you know little, if anything about, and if I sound harsh its not intensional, its just that I expect more from you.

I say this to the knockers please do not let your rash negative judgement now make this an argument thats purpose becomes only to defend your pride, as you will never find the truth.

Cheers
Den

[RedDevil]

Hi Brett

The statement about being lazy wasnt really aimed at you, but I guess its got you reading? however the remark "put some substance behind your arguement if you want to knock it" was aimed at you in a friendly way, both remarks I mean in a friendly but challenging way

You've raised some important "possibilities" about the product, I highlight the word "can" in your quote, as there is a big difference between the word "can" and "will".



Now lets put some things into perspective here:


If you breath Chlorine as a gas which is put in our drinking water, it causes death! but I understand you need to also avoid the fumes of Chlorine dioxide(MMS) which can be harmfull but still not as harmful as Chlorine gas.


I have not experienced any irriration, neither have any of the people I know who are using it, but if you are one of the people that "can" get irritation I guess you would need to make a decision on using it depending on the extent of the irritation. You know chillis or a hot currie can also irritate the same areas, in fact I believe the irriation from a hot chilli generally continues even further past the stomach! )o(


So can many other medicines currently prescribed by doctors on the market, even excess vitamin A can cause birth defects. "If" this product became a varified and recognised treatment for cancer judging from the current listed side effects of Chlorine dioxied when compared to current treatments, the current treatments appear to be potentially far greater damaging, I believe if you check that most current cancer treatments such a chemotherapy and radiation pose great if not greater risks and side effects.

I would say from my limited knowledge that almost every medicine and vaccine on Earth that I have ever heard of has potential side effects, in fact there are many medications currently prescribed that "can" have serious to lethal side effects. My friends 28year old son died just last week from using a medication prescribed by a specialist doctor and taking it at a prescribed dosage level, I hate to use this tragic incidence as an example however I need to in order to point out the dangers that also exist in prescribed medicine.

So overall Brett, nothing in that statement really should make the basis of condemning this product as a medicine.

Your comment about me being naive, thats water off a ducks back, I need make no effort to debase you, your words and arguments speak for themselves my friend and like that of your scientific collegues there is no weight in your comments that disproves the science behind it, I cant approve or disprove it myself right now as I dont have the educational background, but I'm making efforts to learn about it and not turn my back on it because of my lack of knowledge and uncertainty, my aim is to learn enough to become certain about it one way or other!


Have you actually varified anything in this statement? particularly "there is no scientific evidence that proves it can cure?"

Brett I think you like the others above must admit that you dont have the knowledge or data to argue your negative stance properly, but I'm sure you have the intellect to aquire it.

The reasons why I have put this up here and for my continued interest in this product is because I have first hand experiences using it that have very much impressed/amazed me and I think its worth investigating further. I have put it up here to give others the same chance to make their own investigations and decisions. Scientifically educated people seem to think they can put up a weak derogatory statement and not expect to be questioned and challenged, and fair enough if you guys feel its a waste of time thankyou and goodby, but dont knock a substance you have all shown you know little, if anything about, and if I sound harsh its not intensional, its just that I expect more from you.

I say this to the knockers please do not let your rash negative judgement now make this an argument thats purpose becomes only to defend your pride, as you will never find the truth.

Cheers
Den

[RedDevil]

What a great topic.
You may be onto something with your new cure and I wish you and your mates all the best using it.

However as a doctor (orthopaedic surgeon to be exact) I do have some comments at some of your comments about the medical profession.

1."Treating symptoms is more profitable than a cure, so now with the pharmaceutical Companies basically
running things, GP's have become little more than licensed drug pushers, with poor quality drugs that
dont cure anything, drugs that simply cover the symptoms, that way people stay sick and dependant on
the drugs while the drug Companies and doctors get rich. Sounds like a conspiracy, but its not really, just
a failure of a system that relies on profit to run."

Do you really beleive this? There are plenty of conditions that are cured by medicines - infections, auto -immune conditions and even some cancer. The health system is a problem in every country in the world, a major drain on every budget. There is absolutely no benefit in keeping people sick. Hospitals are too full, waiting lists are too long. If you are uninsured and want a joint replacement or an ACL reconstruction it's a couple of years waiting. So if we could cure arthritis etc with your miracle cure we would gladly do so and spend the time playing golf or driving the new boxter.
You have a problem witha system that runs on profit? Well nothing works for free, everything is dependent on market forces. Why should a pharmaceutical company investigate a new treatment for free, everyone has bills to pay. Most doctors have or still do a lot of charity work in government hospitals, maybe even treating your friends or family at no cost to you, so we have no shame in also making a good living from our private practices.

2." I think they've become an ineffective puppet in a money machine. I'm talking about GPs and not surgeons, surgeons are a differnet kettle of fish, these crafty sick butchers that love the sniff of blood are for another discussion, sorry but when you talk straight(over drinks) to heart surgeons and nurses you hear many nasty secrets of the industry."

Sorry to disillusion you but we ain't anybody's puppets, not when your on a million a year plus. You want to hear about industry secrets? Join me and my mates when we discuss the patients we have to deal with in the public sector. Some sad people out there......

3." doctors only seem to be good at providing bills, no cures, they are completely useless IMO unless you wish to lighten the weight of your wallet, and like I have said this product has been working for me in many cases"

Love it. But who do you see when you are sick?

4."This GP had been keeping my family members in a sick state for many years and charging them a hefty price for it! "

Fantastic!! Showed this to my non fish keeping colleagues and it made their day. I wish to put part of your thread in 1 of our magazines , you know under the section " A Funny Thing Happened To Me In My Surgery Today.....", do I have your or the moderators permission?

But I digress. Back to your cure. Doctors are open-minded, hence our "19th century cures". So you may hear of research into traditional medicine practiced by stone age cultures or ideas which may just work. And if your cure is what you say it is and does work, we'd be mad not to embrace it as even doctors get cancer too.

Anyway I love this forum, don't contribute much as I'm busy ripping off patients with my treatments which may not work. But always having a look and got some great fish and met some good fish people. And joined up on Tuesday and gosh I'm tired and goodnight.
RedDevil

[Den]

Hi RedDevil and Welcome,

I can see you're a good man with good intentions, but I think you've really hung yourself here! prepare to get grilled on your own words...

What a great topic.
You may be onto something with your new cure and I wish you and your mates all the best using it.

Thanks for your best wishes which although seems insincere I will accept, firstly you have misinterpreted my words, I've never claimed it as "my cure", I've had some positive results since using MMS which I have stated and I have been pretty clear in my statements. I may be coming accross as defending it, but if you read the threads properly/thoroughly you will see I am simply putting weak derogatory remarks in their place where they belong - on the scrap heap, like I said if you want to either support or knock it put some facts and substance in your statement or I will pull it apart.

There are plenty of conditions that are cured by medicines - infections, auto - immune conditions and even some cancer.

You should know that all of these treatements are based on old medicine and practice, first anitbiotics used by Chinese over 2000years ago, antibiotic treatments based on penicillin nearly 100year old discovery, mainly for treating bacteria, what about the rest of the 99.9999% of medical problems. Cancer? - like I said - look at how they "try" to cure it, huge side effects from chemo, drugs, radiation and butchering, although I agree the butchers have become more craftier with their knives you may as well go back in time and ask Ghengis Chan to treat you with his sword and cleaver. A work collegue of mine died in 3 days after taking a cancer drug from the side effects of the drug, and not the cancer!.

Secondly regarding GP's and surgeons I am simply stating facts, GP's push mostly poor quality drugs +95% are rubbish, if you know of any new medicines launched since year 1950 that cure a medical condition please state the name.

The health system is a problem in every country in the world, a major drain on every budget. There is absolutely no benefit in keeping people sick. Hospitals are too full, waiting lists are too long. If you are uninsured and want a joint replacement or an ACL reconstruction it's a couple of years waiting. So if we could cure arthritis etc with your miracle cure we would gladly do so and spend the time playing golf or driving the new boxter.

Geez you made me laugh with this statement With all due respect do you actually think the pharmaceutical industries give a damn where the money comes from to buy their crap? I can just imagine the board of directors of Johnston & Johnston and Bayer really worried about encroaching on national budgets(together they turn over 1Trillion dollars a year, thats 2 out of thousands of companies) wake up mate! they clap their hands and cheer at the cues of sick people!. Thanks that was cute you made me laugh . if the preventative cure ever came your Boxter would be in the hands of the Repo man! but dont worry, thanks to your industry there will never be a prevantative cure, well at least not one that comes from you guys!

You have a problem with a system that runs on profit? Well nothing works for free, everything is dependent on market forces. Why should a pharmaceutical company investigate a new treatment for free, everyone has bills to pay. Most doctors have or still do a lot of charity work in government hospitals, maybe even treating your friends or family at no cost to you, so we have no shame in also making a good living from our private practices.

I understand money makes the world go round, I'm a capitalist running my own Companies who understands we have a competely failed medical system. The statistics speak for themselves, face the facts more people are getting sicker, additionally to the profiteering problem we have the people "trying" to create remedies(GP's idea of a cure) who are too far from the patients to be properly effective, they sit in labs working on mice and have no idea of how the human body really works, you all think you do, but you are all miles behind.

Sorry to disillusion you but we ain't anybody's puppets, not when your on a million a year plus. You want to hear about industry secrets? Join me and my mates when we discuss the patients we have to deal with in the public sector. Some sad people out there......

You completely varify my words with this statement, confirming money is a driving force that motivates and isolates you, admit it, your hungry for it, you also admit you do not connect with or understand many of your patients as sad as they may be, they are only sad because they have to rely on "educated" people who are unable to help them. The peer group mentality that the pharmaceutical Companies help create is very well established in your industry, lets not have free thought, people could learn to question or even worse learn something on their own. Finally a million bucks is chicken feed in this industry, enough to make you feel important, but Doctors are just the bottom feeders in this food chain.

Love it. But who do you see when you are sick?

Lately I've been learning that most health problems are diet related, having an alkaline based diet, while avoiding processed foods, artificial flavours, colourings, preservatives, dairy, pork, beef and many of the other crap people call food these days has seen me find a road to perfect health, and I can say I am thankfully now perferctly healthy since I stopped relying on my GP . Although I admit I will go to a GP sometimes to find the name of a problem(GP's are fantastic at telling you what the name of the problem is you have), but to find a cure I go elswhere.

But I digress. Back to your cure. Doctors are open-minded, hence our "19th century cures". So you may hear of research into traditional medicine practiced by stone age cultures or ideas which may just work. And if your cure is what you say it is and does work, we'd be mad not to embrace it as even doctors get cancer too.

Like I said its not my cure and I have not established it to cure cancer, however I have seen some positive results during the treatment that may be "coincidental" or placebo effect which i fairly doubt. I personally know a GP who had cancer which she cured herself with non coventional treatment, did she make notes and share how she cured it?, no! She confided only very close family members and me as she feared to be ridiculed by her collegues! thats peer group pressure for you.

Fantastic!! Showed this to my non fish keeping colleagues and it made their day. I wish to put part of your thread in 1 of our magazines , you know under the section " A Funny Thing Happened To Me In My Surgery Today.....", do I have your or the moderators permission?

Only if you put the whole thread in.

Let me give you one simple example of how the failed medical system works(I can give you many more examples but this thread will be 1000 pages long) When I was 19 I was diagnosed with athsma. I recall the doctor only too keen to prescribe me ventolin(working for his kickback, your money isnt enough, Doctors need to work for kickbacks too you know, mercs arent cheap!), ventolin a steriod inhalent(with damaging side effects) that simply supresses symptoms as they arise, they never cure the problem they just leave you with a life long dependancy on this ventolin junk, the perfect profitable drug.

I refused to use the ventolin and focused on when the attacks came and what triggered them and soon cured my athsma by avoiding all fizzy drinks and wine, since then the attacks have completely stopped for over 10 years, why did it stop?-did the GP give a damn?-no, will this information ever get to someone in charge of finding a cure?-no, gee whats the problem with the system I wonder? There are thousands of people like me whos athsma dissapears and the reason why its cured is never found because GP's never investigate and simply dont care about helping to create curesand thats one of the major failures in the system, if GP's worked to gather and colaborate data of people who have in many cases "accidently" or in commen sense ways cured themselves we'd have a cure for almost everything by now. The problem is that this system that could acutally create cures, would empower the patients and go against the ego's of doctors and in the end unjustify the social status and extravagant salaries they so much enjoy. Let me state for the record doctors are disorganised and ineffective and should all be ashamed! the auto industry makes more advancements!

Like I say, I stand by my words, GP's are mostly useless, and heres a new quote for you, GP's are a disorganised group of plagiarists lead by the pharmaceutical industry with no understanding of innovation or healing.

Heres a little taste of what might be some interesting info, can provide much much much more
Most scams never see the light of day.
http://well.blogs.ny...ng-your-doctor/
http://www.uow.edu.a..._kickbacks.html
http://www.theage.co...5125911258.html
http://www.theage.co...5126011413.html
http://findarticles....06/ai_n17912229
http://findarticles....07/ai_n17912088

[FishGal]

I personally know a GP who had cancer which she cured herself with non coventional treatment, did she make notes and share how she cured it?, NO! She confided only very close family members and me as she feared to be ridiculed by her collegues! thats peer group pressure for you, but I'm sure you and you're mates all learnt about PGP in high school!.

Some would say she was selfish then, no? If she could get over her own fear of possibly being ridiculed, she may hold the "breakthrough" for curing Cancer and yet she chooses not to share it because she may or may not be ridiculed. Don't you think others would want to see how she miraculously cured herself? To take notes on it, study her, ask her questions, look at her condition before and now after she's cured?

IF what you say is true, I think she's extremely selfish....IF anyone had cured themselves from Cancer and there was genuine evidence to prove that they had in fact had Cancer, they had undergone treatment - regardless of what it was -and now were Cancer free, most would think they would want to share this with the world regardless of what kind of feedback they got. In reality IF it was genuine that she had in fact done this, regardless of how she did it she wouldn't be shy about coming forward and the evidence would speak for itself, so she would have nothing to fear, even ridicule from her own peers...

[RedDevil]

Ok,Ok I know its not a cure. Credibility is so important here.
Speaking of which errrrrrr how do i say this, um ventolin isn't a steroid it's a selective beta2 stimulant, you know reverses bronchospasm. But you may be right, it MIGHT be a steroid and the Pharmaceuticals, Multinationals, US Government, Elvis are probably conspiring against all of us and not telling us.

And I HAVE seen the benefits of chlorine dioxide. I had a patient with severe halitosis, you know real bad breath. He was known in the trade as a "double bagger", the only way not to be fumigated talking to him was to put a paper bag over both his head and your own. Well he started gargling with something called Closys which contains chlorine dioxide. Can't get it from the chemist and need to get it by mail order from over east or something. Anyway his breath is better now and he doesn't empty the waiting room and just 1 paper bag for him.

So I do believe in this stuff. Yeah I hate doctors too believe it or not and one of them ran off with my girlfriend when I was young, and another beat me at golf the other day. So maybe we might get along and do you have any fish you wanna sell, looking for breeding colonies of big stuff for the 6 footer in my office (tax deduction you know, dodgy doctors).

Anyway driving down to our place in Eagle Bay now (yeah I know we're greedy buggers wanting to make heaps of cash but there are a few benefits...) wish me luck in this bloody rain.

RedDevil

[Den]

I appologise Reddevil as I went a bit over the top, it was late Friday night and the scotch had kicked in by the time I finished my last post

The subject gets me pretty passionate, my perfectly healthy friend died in the hands of incompetence of a hospiltal last year and now another friends son who was phyically healthy died just recently in the hands of doctors, also watched a bunch of family members pay out money for nothing over the years to doctors and specialists and got nothing in return so I am pretty angry and frustrated at the whole damn system.

Regarding ventolin, I may have it mixed up(should do my research better), but I'm only going over what the lady that handed them to me told me, they gave me two different inhalers and I recall her telling me to only use one(think it was orange or purple colour) in emergencies as it had steriods that had side effects.

And I HAVE seen the benefits of chlorine dioxide. I had a patient with severe halitosis, you know real bad breath. He was known in the trade as a "double bagger", the only way not to be fumigated talking to him was to put a paper bag over both his head and your own. Well he started gargling with something called Closys which contains chlorine dioxide. Can't get it from the chemist and need to get it by mail order from over east or something. Anyway his breath is better now and he doesn't empty the waiting room and just 1 paper bag for him.

I worked with a guy like that about 15 years ago, one time he had a flu(blocked nose) and could only breath through his mouth and he stunk up a whole massive wharehouse, poor guy, if only I knew about chlorine dioxide back them. I'm also glad you've experienced some benefits, at least one person here has, I dont feel so silly and crazy now.

I've found a clininc in Fremantle that uses Chlorine Dioxide to treat cancer, I have been told by rumour they have a 98% success rate at curing it, I know it sounds too good to be true. You may have heard an old true story about a single mother who one afternoon found a rolls royce selling in the news paper for $20, no one rang to enquire because everyone assumed it was a mistake or "too good to be true". So the single mother rang the number to enquire and sure enough a lady answers and varifies she has a rolls royce in perfect condition for sale for $20. The reason it was so cheap is that it was her husbands favourite car, however he had cheated on her and she was in charge of selling and splitting the assets and this was her revenge. Imagine how many thousands of people looked at that add and thought "it's too good to be true" and just ignored it. So the open minded single mum ended up with a shiny rolls royce for $20. So I'm taking my sick family member to this clinic this week to see whats happening there for ourselves, maybe its a shiny rolls royce or an old rusty datsun, can only find out if we have a look. I figure while on the waiting list for surgery we may as well be pro-active and see what options are out there.

Yes I agree I think we'll get along Reddevil, but sorry no fish for sale, in fact I'll be looking for some myself soon.


FishGal

This is the point I am making, its a faulty system, GP's are at the battle front, but they are simply not trained or paid to care about finding cures, all the really need to learn is how to gather, collaborate and share data amongst themselves and they could find cures for almost anything in a very short period of time. However there are like an army of soldiers with no proper leadership, they are just a disorganised mob.

For example I think a simple way doctors could cure a patient of athsma is to find the triggers, to find the triggers is no rockert science (I did it for myself so I think anyone can do it). You just need to make a diary after every attack to find a pattern. In the diary you list some of the following, (below is a just a rough draft). If they gave people a diary together with ventolin as a backup they could in the same process elimiate the asthma, I ask myself why dont GP's do these kinds of things with all diseases? Because they are not trained or paid to find cures, yet I think they are in the best position to do so.

DIARY
1. Time and Date of attack :
2. Place of attack :
3. Severity of attack 1mild........10extreme
4. Drinks consumed in 10minutes prior to attack
5. Food consumed in 10minutes prior to attack
6. Drink consumed in 1hour prior to attack.
7. Food consumed in 1hour prior to attack
8. List All Drink consumed on the day of attack.
9. List All Food consumed on the day of attack
10. emotial state just proir to attack, e.g. excited, angry, happy etc.
11. Activity just prior to attack, walking, jogging, resting, sitting, swimming, etc.

I'm confident within less than 10 attacks you will establish a pattern and find whats triggering your athsma.

Maybe the specialists have got some sense and are doing this now, but back when I got diagnosed they just threw ventolin at me.

Anyway I dont want to bash doctors anymore, I guess many of them try their best.

Cheers
Den

[FishGal]

I'd be interested to know where exactly in Fremantle this clinic is and what kinds of Cancers it's curing and again, if it's got a 98% success rate, why haven't we heard about it?!? I'm not saying what you're saying isn't true but I just find it hard to grasp that somewhere in the world and in WA even has been curing Cancer and we haven't heard about it? If it's true I'd love to know what the clinic is called...I have a beloved family member I would love to refer- if it's genuine of course....

[Den]

Hi FishGal

Thats the whole reason why I put this thread up, I know there are alot of people who are effected by this problem and I'm putting it out there to see whether other people have heard about this stuff. At this stage its obvious that almost no one has heard of it, and I'm pretty frustrated at the amount of flack I am copping from people that know nothing about it, I was hoping to hear from other people who actually know something about it.

If you read what I am saying I am simply passing on what I am hearing from other sources so its not a matter of wether what I am saying is true or not, I am simply on a mission to find the truth about it.

I am visiting this clinic this Tuesday and I will let you know the outcome and wether I think its worth passing on, I dont want to pass on anything about the clinic without checking it out myself first, I hope you can understand why, I want to varify the rumours first.

Cheers
Den