Great thread Larry.
I'm really keen to be involved in any type of research or experiment with these fish - they are becoming a firm favourite of mine. There is only so much one hobbyist can do in this regard considering limitations such as tank space, so it's a great idea to start some kind of collaborative effort amongst interested keepers of orange heads.
Hi Poncho,
It's great that you want to be involved mate, the contribution you have already made is much appreciated
and I'm looking forward to working on this with you and learning from you as well. The most important thing I see here is that we are all learning and we have only just begun and look at all the information and interest we have generated together (by that I mean everyone who has contributed by making a post on here). I guess the thing this proves is that there are are lot of us hobbyist/breeders out there who have a lot of knowledge, not just from the available literature but also from personal experience, and I invite anyone who keeps orange heads of whichever variant (I have seen some posts o/s from people with 'Tapajos 11'?, It would be good to hear from them as well).
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I've got 40 or 50 odd juvies growing up now from my stock and I plan on adding around 12 of them back into my colony of 7. I'm keen to see how the adults will react with sub-adults. Terry pointed out to me a very interesting thing with Uaru which was, the sub-adults will revert back to juvenile patterns when food is available so that the adult fish will allow them to feed in peace and not shoo them away. I've got 10 of the suckers and have seen this for myself - it's pretty cool! In the tank my orange heads can't defend free swimming fry from the other hungry fish, so I miss out on seeing extended parental care but I can reintroduce sub-adults and see how the original group takes it. Ideally I would like to add fish from someone elses stock but with the whole ID thing I'm too worried about crossing varients to go down that path.
Awesome
, this one will be really interesting, I'm keen to watch your progress on this mate, and if in any way I can help just give me a call
.
I'll send you a pm and we can look at the origin of your fish and type, and I'm confident that we could find a suitable source for a mate and we can look into the origin of potential candidates so that you maximise you chances of getting a fresh bloodline. So let's not let the whole id dilemma slow us down, we just proceed with caution. It's all good.
(Also, I'll find a link to a posting by a guy who keeps colonies of S. leucosticta in large outdoor ponds, very interesting read re social/family/community structure and behaviour)
Hey, very interesting info on uaru, I have have 5 uaru at 4-5 cm I really like these fish too, thanks for this info.
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Speaking of ID - Larry you've convinced me to get off my butt and look deeper into it and I'll be posting up some (hopefully) pointy questions soon to critique people's identification on the location of their fish. I'll be asking the questions not to try and prove anyone wrong but rather to clear any doubts in my mind and hopefully the minds of other people new to orange heads as to why one fish is tapajos and the other araguaia. I don't want to undermine or seem ungrateful for the efforts of people like ozarowana, japes (and yourself?) in trying to provide a Geo ID resource for the aquarium hobby in Australia - that work is fantastic and deserves the support of all geo fanatics in Aus!
Excellent, and yes very good point, none of this is being done to discredit, show up, or disprove anyone's prior work, the purpose of this project is to ADD to the body of information that is already out there, with respect for the efforts of the likes of Weidner, and other authour/research/hobbyist/breeders.
Also, thanks Poncho for playing along with that and playing the role that you adopted, I enjoyed sparring with you etc, you played the role so well and really made it interesting and kept me on my toes. This also led on to this current thread/Research Project. Looking at the list of all of us who are participating, is ...well it's kind of overwhelming, I know there is a high standard of quality out there just among people I know, there must be other sources and bloodlines out there, too, there is another guy over east that I have chatted to, and he has a colony of 20 of the' Tapajos' variant pictured above, I'll invite him along, he has some interesting ideas and information on these fish too.
the way i see this proceeding is:
at the last posting here I am going to make a Summary Point, where I/we review all the information that we have gathered to date and summarise all relevant points identified and all questions that need to be answered as well as any that have been answered or any new information added. This will be slow but that's ok, in the meantime all of use can maybe choose specific lines of enquiry/research/observation/experimentation..... and keep posting your findings/ideas//questions etc. [
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However, to start with, Larry - can you list the reasons why you have ID'd the fish in your first post as either tapajos or araguaia. Is it solely based on the redness or coverage of red on the head between the two fish? (seems to be the main argument used) There may be other explanations for these differences that don't necessarily mean that the fish are from seperate locations. I mentioned in the other thread that diet, water parameters, condition of the fish, mood of the fish are all things that influence colour intensity in cichlids. Another factor could be line breeding and you mention age as well. Chuong mentions in his post that ID'ing using this characteristic is problematic also due to gender.
The experience with my fish - I have not seen the full operculum coloured up before (araguaia)
- I see the head as being orange in colour most of the time but can intensify to red (tapajos) - of course this is very subjective and what I call orange others may swear is red
- When red the colour is restricted to areas around the lips and on the crown of the head only (not sure if this means anything)
- the colour and intensity is very much related to the mood of the fish and can change momentarily - how can someone ask an experienced keeper to ID their fish based on this characteristic when they are providing one photo at one particular point in time.
Some of these doubts can easily be ruled out. Provide details of age of the two different fish pictured, have they been kept in the same tank for long? have they been raised on the same foods? What sex are they?
Too often comparisons are made on forums between two different photos from two different people with no other information other than the visual. The assumption is made that it is lineage at play rather than some of the other factors I have mentioned. People keeping both suspected types are in a much better position to rule some of these things out and hopefully can provide some input here with regards to this.
PS - Larry, can you send me the link to your blog?
Hi Poncho,
Here is the link to my blog:
http://larry.meinvhex.org/ there are only 2 translated articles on there atm, but more are in progress, the one that is of major interest to us here is this one: The Geophagus of the southern clearwater influxes of the Amazon in Para; Brazilra; Brazilien - Jens Gottwald in Aquaristikfachmagazin Ausgabe 191, I am working on another by Albering:
http://www.aquanet.d...g/bericht1.html, this article is the work referred to in Weidner's Eartheater book, I believe this is the first recorded account of these fish breeding, if I'm wrong please let me know, and direct me to any earlier works. A good place to start, and the pics at Albering's site raise another interesting problem for us regarding operculum coloration determining variant.....hmmmm........
I'll finish this article asap!!!!
http://larry.meinvhex.org/