137 replies to this topic

[werdna]

If its that pet chain down the road from you, they will be selling them even if they do notice they are hybrids... which they probably wont.
They had some EY crosses last time I was in there, looked like cross with EB, I told them that they arent real EYs and they should change the label to hybrid cichlid, they pretty much shrugged me off.

Its a difficult position that lfs owners are in, people expect you to take all the fish they dont want, but you have to trust them. And alot of people if you ask them what else they keep in their tank they say "oh, its a cichlid tank, theres 3 yellow ones, 2 blue ones, and some stripey ones that are real cute..."

[Den]

There are two types of hybrids in the hobby, intentional wanted hybrids and accidental unwanted hybrids.

Now some of you may not want any hybrids at all, but there are other people who do want intentional hybrids, intentional hybrids include fish such as various flowerhorns, discus and angel fish, purists this is reality so get over yourself.

Its pretty obvious and clear that all "unwanted*" hybrids are accidental/unintentional and are more likely to come from amatures;

A few ideas, maybe there is a way to seperate the proffessionally bred from the uncertain amature stuff and the PCS can do its bit to stop the spread of "unwanted*" hybrids.

1. An accredited breeders PCS certificate system. Breeders would have to maintain a certain level of criteria in their breeding setups to get a certificate from the club. Stores that buy the fish from PCS accredited breeder could display the certificate number on the tanks, I wont do into any more details but you get the drift.

2. No photo no sale. No cichlids sold in the PCS classifieds without photo of the fish for sale, how many hybrids are selling in the PCS classifieds right now?

Note: "Unwanted*" I mark unwanted because not all hybrids are unwanted or accidental, there are also hybrids that are wanted by groups of people in the market place, and these hybris are intenionally created by sections of the cichlid hobby such as flower horns and various man made discus and angel fish.

Cheers
Den

[Poncho]

1. An accredited breeders PCS certificate system. Breeders would have to maintain a certain level of criteria in their breeding setups to get a certificate from the club. Stores that buy the fish from PCS accredited breeder could display the certificate number on the tanks, I wont do into any more details but you get the drift.

I think this is an excellent idea and worth exploring more. Would take a fair bit of effort to get going and keep running but I think it is something that could really address the unintentional hybrid issue. Also, makes the hobby look like it has the capacity to manage it's own affairs in the light of impending restrictions being tightened. Does the PCS have the capacity to manage something like this?

Given the way we are growing I think we do. We could even just concentrate initially on a problem area eg. Malawi haps or mbuna are higher risk than most tangs, or central americans known to be used to create flowerhorns.

[Den]

Thanks Brett, "if" there are any costs to the certificate I suggest you charge an application fee for the certificate, for example if committee members or accredited inspectors have to travel to inspect fish and breeding premises then their fuel costs should at least be covered.

No doubt there will be benifits to the breeder because their fish when represented with a validity certificate will be disinguished and most likely command a higher market value.

I dont think the certificate can provide any 100% guarantees other than; the PCS and this breeder have done A&B&C to ensure that these fish are correctly labelled and to avoid the creation of hybrids.

The registration number will also allow you to track breeders so if someone is spreading hybrids you can track them back and stop it.

Anyway you guys are smart people, Im sure you can work it all out.

P.S. If I didnt get involved with flowerhorns and bring that interest here this discussion would not have happened, so in the end the flowerhorn hobby might save the day!

Cheers
Den

[Ronny]

P.S. If I didnt get involved with flowerhorns and bring that interest here this discussion would not have happened, so in the end the flowerhorn hobby might save the day!

The registration idea is actually something Brett has mentioned a number of times a few months back in regards to fish becoming noxious.

He had the idea that instead of banning certain fish and terminating them, make it compulsary for keepers to register them, much like the reptile rules...

[Den]

The registration idea is actually something Brett has mentioned a number of times a few months back in regards to fish becoming noxious.

He had the idea that instead of banning certain fish and terminating them, make it compulsary for keepers to register them, much like the reptile rules...

Bretts idea sounds like a keepers registration, not a verified breeders registration, thats a different idea.

Louhanman saves the day again! Im gonna start wearing a cape

[golden_dase]

Im gonna start wearing a cape

Make sure the cape has "chinese writing". haha!

[Ronny]

To breed them, you'd have to be registered to keep them first

[Den]

To breed them, you'd have to be registered to keep them first

yes but that wouldnt ensure that the keeper would have the guidelines or capabilities to avoid crossbreeding.

for example if you are keeping one tank full of different species you could still get your registered "keepers" certificate but you would not qualify for the "breeders" certificate which I am suggesting, so conceptually its a big difference and its obvious which system would help in the prevention of hybrids.

[golden_dase]

So, for example Den. I am breeding (and/or trying to breed) 3 different Lethrinops (more if I could find them!!). They're kept in 3 different tanks so there's no chance of cross-breeding etc. Is that what you're referring to?

[Ronny]

Ah, fair enough.

We'll just make sure it's used to ensure NO hybrids at all will be bred, cos that's what Nazis do

[Den]

So, for example Den. I am breeding (and/or trying to breed) 3 different Lethrinops (more if I could find them!!). They're kept in 3 different tanks so there's no chance of cross-breeding etc. Is that what you're referring to?

Yes Kevin that would be part of it, not only setup but the parental fish would need to be certified by qualified nominated inspectors.

there would be set criteria that would need to be followed and confirmed by registered PCS inspectors(or whatever you want to call them), I would have a large group of qualified nominated people and make a minimum of 2 required nominations to get a certificate for a particular species, this all needs to be worked out by committee as to what set criteria is both possible and practical to manage.

If you have a large group of inspectors and a breeder is rejected and the breeder makes a complaint he can ask for a second inspection with new inspectors.

Just a few ideas

Cheers
Den

[werdna]

I'm sorry, but I cant really see that working.
It just seems too hard.
Dont get me wrong, I like the idea and all, but its gotta be easy, and having to get parents verified by inspectors, get juvies confirmed, thats not easy.

The idea is great, but always remember KISS rule!

[Den]

I dont see why confirming juvies is necessary, if the person has verified parents and breeding setup the juvies can only be one thing, but off course confirming juvies would be better as well if possible.

Remember we are in a cyber world in the 21st century, alot of this could all be done via photos and internet.

[Poncho]

this all needs to be worked out by committee as to what set criteria is both possible and practical to manage.

Not going to happen for a long time - committee has a lot of work already. Anyway, i think this kind of thing needs input from all our members if it is to work, so that we can gauge if people will participate. If we can design the system, present it to committee and get their endorsement and judgement on whether it is something they can handle then so much the better. I might start a new thread asking for input and put together a basic design but this is something I'd like to do with club members not just committee.

I have suggested it before but not in the context of hybrids - more about making sure we don't lose species because no one is breeding them eg. balzani. But I'm happy for the FH man to take the credit - he needs it more than me and I never mentioned my ideas beyond committee or a few mates.

[golden_dase]

Sorry if this sounds stooopid... but what's the BAP for? I assumed that was a register of fish being bred by members? Isn't it the same sort of thing?

[Den]

I might start a new thread asking for input and put together a basic design but this is something I'd like to do with club members not just committee.

Good idea, more brains involved = more ideas, then just need to pick out what works.

Look down under the rug! is it a turd? is it a stain? no its the hybrid issue!

after all this new and refreshed discussion on hybrids hopefully it wil be dealt with practically this time and wont be swept under the rug again and forgotten until a new series of debates arises as has been repeated many times in history.

Cheers
Den

[Ronny]

Even if/when this was to happen, the aim behind would still be anti hybrid.

It wouldn't mean this forum would become a free for all for FH pics and sales...

[tranced]

i dunno it seems to me that the only people who are gonna care about some kind of certificate will be the ones that can spot the hybrids easily enough anyway... not to mention how easy it would be to cheat the system...

[Den]

Even if/when this was to happen, the aim behind would still be anti hybrid.

It wouldn't mean this forum would become a free for all for FH pics and sales...

If you want to survive you have to turn that "anti" attitude into becoming "pro" natural instead.

You can be anti hybrid for the rest of your life but you are not going to change a thing that way, but dont believe me, look at history and whats happening now and believe that.

i dunno it seems to me that the only people who are gonna care about some kind of certificate will be the ones that can spot the hybrids easily enough anyway... not to mention how easy it would be to cheat the system...

cheat what system?, it hasnt been created yet! give it a chance to get created before you start to knock it people.

Cheers
Den