88 replies to this topic

[RD.]

 

When you say 'every other idiot who was written about this subject' do you mean anyone who has started a discussion and asked questions?
 

 

 

No, absolutely not.  What I meant was people such as the research scientist who was originally referred to in the link on page 1, and others such as Steven Pro who also wrote about this same subject years ago, and had no idea what he was talking about.  Some people read one online article by possibly a very biased (or ignorant) person, and take it for the gospel.  I personally need to hang my hat on a bit more than the say so of one person, no matter who that person is.  

 

Garlic itself is not the problem, the problem is the lipid (fat) content found in garlic, as many fish (especially marine fish) cannot properly assimilate fat from terrestrial based sources.  Much the same as a freshwater piscivore.   Again, this is not new to the aquaculture world.  But there is not a single manufacturer of fish food in the world that uses large volumes of fresh oily garlic garlic in their feed, which no one does.

 

From the link that I supplied;

 

 

With regards to the concerns that have been brought up in the past regarding negative health issues from garlic .......


The only true scientific study that I'm aware of where a negative conclusion was reached when feeding garlic (a purified form of allicin) to marine fish, was due to terrestrial based lipids being bad for a fish, which is true, if used in excess. A potential problem if one uses fresh garlic or garlic oil over an extended period of time, a total non issue if one uses a commercial feed where garlic powder is being used. The inclusion rate of lipids via the addition of adding garlic to most commercial feeds (@ 1-5%) wouldn't even register on the overall lipid percentage of the food.

With regards to commercial foods, the "lipid" content derived from the garlic used in most formulas (garlic powder), would be almost nonexistent. Something along the lines of 0.0001%

To think that this will somehow have a negative effect on the health of a fish, be it short term, or long term, due to the lipid content, is quite frankly, ridiculous.

Using this same type of logic one could make the same accusations about Vitamin A, due to the fact that at high enough levels it too can become toxic to fish.

Garlic has been used for centuries for its anthelmintic properties, and contains bioactive compounds that thus far have clearly been proven to have a probiotic effect on fish.

 

 

 

And I don't think that it's fair to be so harsh on Waruna.  He has worked VERY hard and invested a TON of $$$ over the past few years to bring a quality feed to AU. He sponsors this forum as well, and along comes Mr. Innocent in what clealry appeared to me to be stealth mode, and takes a poke at a raw ingredient used by a number of his competitors, including one who sponsors this forum. If I had been in Warunas shoes I would have been pissed as well. 

[Buccal]

Take it how you want.
The majority of all fish foods out there have a lot of terrestrial components,,, so the questioning was about most foods.
Even if particular products were mentioned.

quoted.
"Garlic itself is not the problem, the problem is the lipid (fat) content found in garlic, as many fish (especially marine fish) cannot properly assimilate fat from terrestrial based sources.  Much the same as a freshwater piscivore.   Again, this is not new to the aquaculture world.  But there is not a single manufacturer of fish food in the world that uses large volumes of fresh oily garlic garlic in their feed, which no one does".

This is the sort of discussion/feedback as example I personally wanted to chat about with others,,, after all, this is what we do on forums on such as this.
I'm not a fish keeper with a few display tanks trying to sell a product.

I'm a large breeder (as big as big is in oz anyway lol) and need to know the pro's and cons for my own benefits,,, If it's looked at as pot stirring,,,, ha hah, well sorry if for that if it's misconstrued that way.
Stealth is my first, second and last name,,,, I can't help that.
But I can assure you there was no intention in the way Waruna portrayed this.
Waruna is a great bloke,,, his exasperated passion sometimes takes over.
After all,,,, before I made the switch of foods, I was a die hard NLS user.

[waruna]

 

 

Waruna, how do you explain this after stating numerous times that the 'new' NLS pellets float purely due to the size...

 

 

This letter was sent out after i received our last container of NLS, in Feb. I don't know how many times i have to say this to you the stock we currently have in AUS is not affected by this.

 

From Ian's letter..

 

 

 

This means our new pellets are lighter than previous batches. As a result, we are adjusting the stated weights on our standard packaging sizes to reflect this. 

 

And this..

 

 

 

Customers can expect to see these changes first in our highest selling SKUs and rolled out to
others over the next few months.

 

 

The new formula/batches will have the labels stating "new higher concentration formula" and these weight changes.. The current 80g jar will be listed as 60g, 150g jars will be 125g, 300g jars will be 250g and the 2.27kg buckets will be 2kg.  When you see these changes you will know you are getting the new improved formula.

 

 

[waruna]

Because of the low temperature production, the vitamins and minerals are encapsulated in an emulsion of water and lipid droplets. So the water soluble vitamins encapsulated in a lipid which is then encapsulated in water and so on, much like a Russian doll.

 

 

Mark, There is NO such thing as "low temperature production", i am very familiar with Australian Quarantine and Import regulations, after all i have been importing NLS for almost 9 years now. We have very specific temperature requirements on importing processed fish feeds in to this country. Either that or the food will be Gamma irradiated, i believe New Era foods were irradiated this way for quite sometime?

 

Perhaps you could answer these questions about New Era? 

 

Could you please inform me as to the reason for having such a high percentage of ash content in most of your formulas? I have never come across a premium fish food which contains 20% Ash. While I understand that lower overall starch levels will push the ash percentage up slightly, the only possible explanation I can think of for such high overall ash content is the use of left over/processing plant waste such as head/scales/bones when one utilizes generic fish meal, generic shrimp meal, etc. Is this the reason?  If not please advise.

Algae is listed last (below Vitamin, mineral, and fish oil) on your Algae flakes, Algae pellets, and Alage grazing log, does this mean that the actual algae percentage is likely to be less than 1-2%?   I was a bit confused as to why these formulas are marketed as "algae" foods, when it appears that very little algae is actually being used?    

 

New Era states that the shelf life of their food is 2 years.  With water content being as high as 20-24% in some of the formulas could you please advise as to what preservatives are used (such as ethoxyquin etc) that allows what is essentially a soft and moist food to remain stable for up to 2 years?

 

 

[smirq]

[Buccal]

 
Mark, There is NO such thing as "low temperature production", i am very familiar with Australian Quarantine and Import regulations, after all i have been importing NLS for almost 9 years now. We have very specific temperature requirements on importing processed fish feeds in to this country. Either that or the food will be Gamma irradiated, i believe New Era foods were irradiated this way for quite sometime?
 
Perhaps you could answer these questions about New Era? 
 
Could you please inform me as to the reason for having such a high percentage of ash content in most of your formulas? I have never come across a premium fish food which contains 20% Ash. While I understand that lower overall starch levels will push the ash percentage up slightly, the only possible explanation I can think of for such high overall ash content is the use of left over/processing plant waste such as head/scales/bones when one utilizes generic fish meal, generic shrimp meal, etc. Is this the reason?  If not please advise.

Algae is listed last (below Vitamin, mineral, and fish oil) on your Algae flakes, Algae pellets, and Alage grazing log, does this mean that the actual algae percentage is likely to be less than 1-2%?   I was a bit confused as to why these formulas are marketed as "algae" foods, when it appears that very little algae is actually being used?    
 
New Era states that the shelf life of their food is 2 years.  With water content being as high as 20-24% in some of the formulas could you please advise as to what preservatives are used (such as ethoxyquin etc) that allows what is essentially a soft and moist food to remain stable for up to 2 years?
 
 

Quote.
"Mark, There is NO such thing as "low temperature production", i am very familiar with Australian Quarantine and Import regulations, after all i have been importing NLS for almost 9 years now. We have very specific temperature requirements on importing processed fish feeds in to this country. Either that or the food will be Gamma irradiated, i believe New Era foods were irradiated this way for quite sometime?
 
Perhaps you could answer these questions about New Era?"

:::: 52% is temp production,,, you may argue that cold pressing is classified at lower temps,,, but no to that.
Majority of batches in shops now are no longer gamma irradiated, I/we, are very happy with this outcome
So the food will no longer be irradiated,, just the Mollusc.
As you know, it's the Mollusc in the recipe for being G irradiated.
Now it's just the Mollusc that gets irradiated before its added.
The irradiation is identical to the process as is used for human consumption foods.
This has made the process easier and cheaper to bring into Australia.
I'm only taking a guess at this next sentence.
The profit to be made from New Era I suspect is much much less than there would be in Spectrum products.

Quote. 
"Could you please inform me as to the reason for having such a high percentage of ash content in most of your formulas? I have never come across a premium fish food which contains 20% Ash. While I understand that lower overall starch levels will push the ash percentage up slightly, the only possible explanation I can think of for such high overall ash content is the use of left over/processing plant waste such as head/scales/bones when one utilizes generic fish meal, generic shrimp meal, etc. Is this the reason?  If not please advise."

:::: it's because the food is not over processed, so levels of ash that's seen on the containers list is the ingredients not being to modified.
Example,,, if a stingray swallows a whole fish in the wild,,,, then it's heads scales and bones will be consumed all measuring up to that roughly 20%.
I see you run that ash gauntlet all the time.... Used as a scare tactic somehow,,,, ash is natural.

Quote.
"Algae is listed last (below Vitamin, mineral, and fish oil) on your Algae flakes, Algae pellets, and Alage grazing log, does this mean that the actual algae percentage is likely to be less than 1-2%?   I was a bit confused as to why these formulas are marketed as "algae" foods, when it appears that very little algae is actually being used? "

:::: just like other foods some ingredients are replaced with others that serve the same but often better purpose,,, this is acquired through scientific research that is out of my league,,,,,, and I will certainly will not cut and paste a heap of research that loses and bores everybody.
The algae containers with algae on it is showing that it's for fish that eat algae or requires algae in their diet.

Quote. 
"New Era states that the shelf life of their food is 2 years.  With water content being as high as 20-24% in some of the formulas could you please advise as to what preservatives are used (such as ethoxyquin etc) that allows what is essentially a soft and moist food to remain stable for up to 2 years?"

:::: ahhh, wouldn't you like to know, for the main part,,, it's trade secrets my intuitive little buddy.
The modified starch, but don't quote me on it, has a bit to do with it.
New Era has focused on the down points of the majority of today's modern foods,,, and have worked on amending them.
 
 

Edited by Buccal, 07 September 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[sydad]

 

 

Fair is fair, I have never hidden who I am - and on that note I no longer have a dog in this fight, as I no longer have any type of vested interest in any fish food.

 

 

Hello RD,

 

Sorry if I've missed something, but who are you? I understand that this seems a little blunt, but I realise that you are from Canada (Kanada?), and your statement suggests that you are well known. It's apparent that i am ill informed here!

I have stayed out of the discussion on the thread topic because I have little to contribute that is of real significance, but have found much of interest in the discussion. It is just a pity that some people come across as so thin skinned!

 

Syd.

[jeffblack]

I was told by a shop owner, that had all of the previously mentioned foods on the floor and sera flora, that he found hbh cichlid frenzy the best out of the lot.

[RD.]

 

Take it how you want.
The majority of all fish foods out there have a lot of terrestrial components,,, so the questioning was about most foods.
 

 

 

I took it the only way an intelligent independent thinker could take it. 

 

You offered no credible science to support your view about the use of garlic, all you have demonstrated is that you are good at blowing smoke.  I'm sure that there are plenty more papers posted in peer reviewed journals since I posted my previous comments on this subject.  It's a brave new world out there, and the aquatic world has learned from their past mistakes in the overuse of antibiotics etc on their farms, and are seeking out more natural non-invasive practices.  Some farms simply started a couple of decades ago. For those pioneers in this area of fishkeeping using garlic in their feed had nothing to do with marketing, or gimmicks.  In fact, when New Life first began using garlic in the farm feed, and later in their consumer products - I believe that they were the only tropical feed on the market doing so. 

 

As far as terrestrial components, and Ronny's earlier question regarding terrestrial based plant matter.  The issue is far more complex than simply digestibility, or the assimilation of lipids.  The main issue with terrestrial based plant matter, at least those commonly used in aquaculture feed is that they contain anti-nutritional matter.  Most of the anti-nutritional matter can be reduced, or completely eliminated via the heat of processing, but overall their use should be limited for reasons stated, especially in those species that lean more ot the carnivorous side of the equation.

 

As an example, fresh/canned peas are a very poor form of nutrition for any fish.

Peas must be processed first, as they contain anti-nutritional matter, such as tannins, protease inhibitors, saponins, cyanogens, and phytic acid, which when consumed in excess can have a very negative effect on the growth & overall health of fish.

The anti-nutritional factors found in peas can vary greatly from crop to crop & season to season. Something as simple as dry weather, or a cold spell, can push tannin levels up drastically.

The heat from processing will reduce most of this antinutritional matter, but even then most fish can only digest & assimilate so much terrestrial based plant matter. All of this has been well documented in commercial aquaculture for many years. Ditto to soybeans, corn, etc

[RD.]

Hello sydad, I'm just a guy who loves fish, who used to be associated with New Life.  Some might say that I know a thing or two about fish food, and feeding fish. 

[RD.]

Trade secrets now?  LOL  

 

There are no trade secrets in this business, the science is out there for anyone that wants to utilize it. 

Proprietary information, yes.  Trade secrets in fish food, no such thing. 

 

 

While I really don't care to get into a nit picking contest between vendors, I just have to respond to this one.

 

 

 

Example,,, if a stingray swallows a whole fish in the wild,,,, then it's heads scales and bones will be consumed all measuring up to that roughly 20%.
 

 

Correct, but pellet/flake food is not a whole fish, and its nutrient value is based on a "dry matter basis", not an as-is "wet basis". Using your logic New Era should have a moisture content of 80-90%, which is roughly the water content of your whole fish in the wild. Somehow those numbers don't seem to add up, although I'm sure if someone could figure out how to bottle up water & sell it they would.  Oh, right, that's already been done.   And while ash is natural, it's typically not a welcome addition to a closed system such as an aquarium, anymore than phosphates are.   

 

Water pollution via inorganic pollutants such as nitrogen & phosphates is also natural. 

[Buccal]

R.D, the trade secret thing was a plastic bag full of choof smoke,,,,(joke).
You stated my view on garlic, I only suggested that a feel the garlic has made no difference for myself whether i used or not.
I put this up for discussion to as before mentioned learn between one another on these sites.
Not every one has devoted large parts of their life to obtain knowledge on these things like you.

Civil discussion does involve some wrongness in information.
Because I have become a rep, this should not govern me to still talk as a breeder wanting to know more.

From the time Waruna come out throughing nail/marble bombs wrecking the whole serenity,,, I new he would call in the heavy
artillery (you R.D).
Waruna is so predictable .

I'm sure if I called up the scientific supporter of New Era to challenge,,, it would be like smoking cigarettes in a tin shed full of fireworks.
This is the way Waruna operates,,, call in the big guns with truckloads of knowledge to drown out the little guns with lesser knowledge.
Then what do you know,,, all of a sudden the product looks like its king of the mountain again. Lol.
There are very good reasons why fish food choices are changing in different directions here in oz,,,,,

I personally made my choices after testing for some time.
The rep job, came a lot later on.
I dont take food choices very lightly either.

[Westie]

any chance this thread can be cleaned up and have only the relevant information on it. 

this is an interesting thread, well for the most of it, but if I want to know what food is best for my fish, I will try all the different types on my fish and let them decide

[Buccal]

Don't take this the wrong way,,, but your fish can't decide,,, you have to.
They can't tell or favor a food that is best for in a nutrition sense.

A example would be a fat chubby little 8 year old human.
He loves and eats chocolate and hamburgers from macdonalds.
But his mum can't get him to eat green beans and broccoli.
That child doesn't know what's good for him.

When fish are bought up on a particular food,, they show little interest in other type foods.
Starve them a bit or mix the two foods to ween from one to the other.
It's more clearly seen changing from pellet to flake or vice versa.

Both discussed foods are good and there's no issues one way or another for your fish.
There are just different pro's and cons other than nutrition.

[RD.]

Buccal, you state:

 

I only suggested that a feel the garlic has made no difference for myself whether i used or not.
I put this up for discussion to as before mentioned learn between one another on these sites.
 

 

But clearly that is not all that you suggested, you made some rather bold statements that on most forums create knee jerk reactions by the masses before they realize the source of that information.  This is why I am posting here, as I have when Wombat and others have used his silly little study in an attempt to convince the masses that garlic is somehow dangerous to ones fish, including ALL garlic in ALL forms and in ALL amounts.  That's just idiotic! 

 

Go back to page one and it seems crystal clear to me what you were attempting to do, and what you were stating, which was FAR more than what you say now. 

 

 

It causes internal lesions to the fishes organs.
 

 

 

Yet that study has NOTHING to do with any of the commercial fish foods on the market, as none of them are adding a purified form of allicin, nor do they contain anywhere near the lipid content (which is what caused the lesions in that study) - hence that data has ZERO value from a fishkeepers perspective - unless said fishkeeper is feeding raw garlic to their fish on a regular basis - which is something I would never recommend, anymore than I would recommend feeding raw peas on a regular basis. (due to anti-nutritional matter) 

 

You don't have to be a rocket scientist from NASA to understand this concept.  Nor does one have to devote large parts of their life to obtain knowledge on these things, to understand this very very simple concept.  The *study* that has been tossed around on a few forums over the years did NOT involve any brand commercial fish food on the market, and has absolutely NOTHING to do with ant brand of tropical fish food.  Once again, this is like stating that Vitamin A can be toxic to a fish.  We already know that - and your point is?  Don't feed excessive amounts of Vitamin A to your fish.  Doh!

 

Ronny got that straight away back on page 1. 

 

In high amounts, yes it can be harmful as can anything in high amounts.

 

 

 

 

All the scientific supporters in the world won't change those simple facts.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's like a wives tail belief that has turned into demand, and manufacturers are adding it for improved marketing,,,,,
 

 

Is this what you mean by sharing of information & learning from one another?  Hmmmmmm.  This is where I think it would have been proper to fess up from the start as to what your association with commercial fish food was, and the marketing of that food. You took a direct shot a your competitors, implying that garlic is only used as some kind of marketing gimmick. 

 

Seeing as you have decided to discuss NLS, allow me to explain exactly how garlic ended up in their food, and why.

 

Pablo Tepoot, the creator of New Life Spectrum, has been using garlic in his farm feed since 1990, and while he has never set up a controlled group to study the cause & effects, he noticed a drastic drop in disease in his ponds since implementing garlic in his daily feed. Since adding garlic to his daily feed regime, he has not had a single case of what's commonly referred to as Florida Deep Well Disease. (disease caused by pathogenic bacteria Aeromonas sp. and Psuedomonas sp.)

 

At one point in his fish keeping career (late 1980's) Pablo had a case of Aeromonas sp./ Psuedomonas sp. in his ponds that was so bad he could not contain it with traditional aquaculature meds such as antibiotics etc. It seemed to be a resistent strain of bacteria (something now common in aquaculture) and he was at a loss. He was losing thousands of fish and eventually he had to drain his ponds and allow them to dry out for a few months. He literally had to shut operations down.  In the end he lost 10's of thousands of fish, and decided to look outside of traditional medicine in the hopes of finding a more natural non-intrusive and "fish safe" treatment that could prevent this from ever happening again. 

 

His search lead him to some people working in commercial aquaculture and trout, who were having success with the use of garlic in their feed.  Even at very low concentrations it seemed to improve the fishes overall immunity to certain strains of bacteria. The combination of certain sulphur compounds found in garlic not only boosted the fishes overall immune system, there was no risk of these bacteria strains building up any kind of resistence to it, which is what was happeing with traditional medicinal treatments.  Antibiotics were no longer working.
 

I have already posted this information previously, which supports everything that I have been saying, for years now.

 

Effect of Allium sativum on the immunity and survival of Labeo rohita infected with Aeromonas hydrophila
S. Sahu, B. K. Das, B. K. Mishra, J. Pradhan and N. Sarangi

Aquatic Animal Health Division, Central Institute of Freshwater Aquaculture, Kausalyaganga, Bhubaneswar, India

Journal of Applied Ichthyology, Volume 23 Issue 1, Pages 80 - 86

 

 

Summary


The aim of this study was to evaluate dietary dosages of garlic on the immune response and disease resistance against infections due to the opportunistic pathogen Aeromonas hydrophila in Labeo rohita fingerlings. Garlic, Allium sativum, was incorporated into the diets (0%, 0.1%, 0.5% and 1.0%) of rohu, L. rohita fingerlings (10 ± 2 g). Every 20 days, different biochemical (serum total protein, albumin, globulin, albumin : globulin ratio, blood glucose), haematological (WBC, RBC and haemoglobin content) and immunological (superoxide anion production, lysozyme activity and serum bactericidal activity) parameters were evaluated. Superoxide anion production, lysozyme, serum bactericidal, serum protein and albumin were enhanced in garlic treated groups compared with the control group. After 60 days, fish were challenged with A. hydrophila and mortality (%) was recorded up to day 10 post-challenge. Survival decreased in control group (57%) up to day 10 after infection. However, this was increased in the garlic treatment group, i.e. 85% survivability in the 1 g garlic kg−1 (B group) and 5 g garlic kg−1 (C group), and 71% survivability in the 10 g garlic kg−1 (D group), respectively. These results indicate that Allium sativum stimulates the immunity and makes L. rohita more resistant to infection by A. hydrophila.

 

 

 

Of course that is only 1 study, there are a lot more out there now for anyone that wants to do their own

research. 

 

 

 

 

Here's a very recent study (2013) involving flatworms that took place in AU, at the School of Marine and Tropical Biology, James Cook University.

 

 

Dietary supplementation of garlic (Allium sativum) to prevent monogenean infection in aquaculture

• Thane A. Militz
• Paul C. Southgate
• Alexander G. Carton
• Kate S. Hutson

 

• Center for Sustainable Tropical Fisheries and Aquaculture, James Cook University, Townsville, Queensland 4811, Australia
• School of Marine and Tropical Biology, James Cook University, Townsville, Queensland 4811, Australia

 

Highlights

 

•

First demonstration of dietary supplementation of garlic on aquatic metazoan parasites.

•

Dietary inclusion of garlic inhibits infection success of the parasite Neobenedenia.

•

Garlic’s active component allicin does not leach from aquaculture feeds.

 

 

 

Abstract

Development of an effective preventative treatment for managing infections by Monogenea (Platyhelminthes) in aquaculture remains elusive. Present treatment methods offer only temporary respite and are either labor intensive, harmful to fish welfare or environmentally destructive. This study used garlic (Allium sativum) supplemented feed to assess its potential, in relation to its allicin content (an active component of garlic), to prevent infection by Neobenedenia sp. (Monogenea: Capsalidae) on farmed barramundi, Lates calcarifer. Two garlic supplemented diets of different concentrations and a non-supplemented control diet were fed to L. calcarifer for 10 and 30 days prior to challenging fish with Neobenedenia sp. Long-term (30 days) supplementation with garlic significantly reduced infection success by up to 70% compared to controls and did not negatively affect palatability of the feed. Infection success was not influenced by short-term (10 days) supplementation suggesting that a delayed host response must occur to improve resistance to infection. Incorporation of garlic into a pressure-extruded pellet was found to be an effective method of delivery as only minimal leaching of allicin from the diet occurred (< 3% of allicin detected) during the interval of water contact between delivery and consumption. This study demonstrates that garlic extract administered as a dietary supplement is one of the most practical methods to prevent Neobenedenia sp. infection in mariculture.

 

 

http://www.sciencedi...044848613002615

 

You need to drop $40.00 US to read the entire study, but you should get the overall point from the abstract. Clearly the use of garlic in aquaculture feed is more than just some marketing gimmick, at least to those who are serious about this hobby.

 

 

For those that don't want to spend the $40.00 US, but are interested in reading more about his particular study please see the following link.

 

 

Garlic Keeps Fanged Fish Parasites Away

 

 

 

“Previous research has demonstrated that feeding fish garlic significantly improves their immune system, we wanted to take this research a step further to examine if there was any medicinal effect against parasites” explained Thane Militz of JCU’s Marine Parasitology Laboratory.

 

 

https://research.jcu...-parasites-away

 

 

 

 

 

 

As far as the danger of feeding foods such as NLS, due to garlic content - that's the only old wives tale being told here folks.  lol

 

I have personally kept, and seen many more fish such as African cichlids that are 10-15 yrs old, as old or older than one would find in the wild, that have eaten garlic via NLS since the day they were born.  Same results with numerous marine species - no longevity or health issues here - and unlike New Era,  NLS can actually make claims such as that, as they have actually been in the fish food business for more than a few short years.  

 

 

Now that we have cleared up the garlic fiasco, which is what this discussion was supposed to be about, I think I'll go back to doing what I do best - enjoying my fish and my family.

 

Take care all.

 

Neil

Edited by RD., 08 September 2013 - 01:18 AM.

[Buccal]

Hah, I read the first few lines and didn't even look at the rest.
I'd be lucky to make $3000 a year from selling New Era here in Perth.
I chose to use it for myself and thought this was good for me to give others the opportunity to use it also.
I simply distribute it along with the fish orders.
I really have nothing to gain and Definetely not interested in playing games.
It's me that says Spectrum is a great food and so is New Era,,,,,, I've trailed both extensively.
It's likely Spectrum spokesman has not even tried New Era.
It's also likely you'd never say New Era is a good as well as your food choice.

My full time job, I'm a carpenter in the building industry.
When I was young I was told that I was very good and I new I was.
Being young I thought I was the best there is,,, and no one better.
As time went on and many years past, I saw a few carpenters that appeared to be as good as me.
Many supervisors and builders depended on me for a lot of there work.
As I got to busy, some of these other good carpenters rocked onto the show.
Now some supervisors prefer to use the other carpenter and some supers prefer to use me.
So after all,, yes I was very good, but not the untouchable best.
I've learnt in life there is usually a equal alternative to anything that's great that may just have variable pro's and cons.

[dazzabozza]

Buccal I'm not sure what your last reply has to do with RD's prior post. You don't acknowledge any of his points. He states you started this thread and made some rather bold statements that create knee jerk reactions by the masses before they realize the source of that information. He's also gone to the effort to dismiss the claims against garlic and shown studies proving its usefulness.

Hah, I read the first few lines and didn't even look at the rest.
I'd be lucky to make $3000 a year from selling New Era here in Perth.
I chose to use it for myself and thought this was good for me to give others the opportunity to use it also.
I simply distribute it along with the fish orders.
I really have nothing to gain and Definetely not interested in playing games.
It's me that says Spectrum is a great food and so is New Era,,,,,, I've trailed both extensively.
It's likely Spectrum spokesman has not even tried New Era.
It's also likely you'd never say New Era is a good as well as your food choice.

What exactly does this have to do with the topic at hand "garlic"? This is not a NLS versus New Era thread to decide which is the best. All I see if self-promotion of a distributor and his product and his attempts to allude people in thinking that garlic will damage their fish.

"Hah, I read the first few lines and didn't even look at the rest. I'd be lucky to make $3000 a year from selling New Era here in Perth." reads to me that its not in your interest (be it usage of time or financially) / no reward for effort to take the time to address the topic at hand and challenge the info the R.D has presented.

I'm all for healthy discussion and debates but have to question the true intent of this thread.

[Buccal]

Because I believe what RD has said garlic,,, simple.
He is one of the most knowledgable men around in this industries.
I have followed multitudes of his threads in the US,,, this point of garlic was pushed as if it had to be sold to me at the end.

Back on page 2 the reply that Waruna gave at 9.17am,,,, clearly made it personal and Spectrum versus New Era.

I do thank the mods for not intervening,,,, though I have a funny feeling you guys were thinking let him go ahead and learn his lessen.
RD mentioned I was working in stealth mode,,,, well as well as his tonne of knowledge, he is ten times more stealthy than I.

What this thread has become, people will be looking at it as spectrum versus new era.
So I've tried to close the topic,,, and yes, not really on the subject,,, because RD has given ample info and I or no one here or Oz could top anything over RD's knowledge.

How many users are just on here looking at these debates that are enough to sway the amount of sales of a food,,, close to none.
The profit from the food is low because margins are low.
I have used Spectrum for a long time,,, it started when Paul from Morley got me on it, before Waruna was importing it.
I've kept fish feeding garlic supplemented foods that's lasted over ten years,,, I've had fish last for over ten years on $10 per kilo foods.

This would likely be taken as if I'm saying I don't agree with RD because of that statement,,, but no,,, I entrust everything that RD says, and I learnt a bit more from this thread,,, it's just a shame the Agro involved,,,,

Like I said page 2 at 9.17am Waruna at his best,,,,, that's when the of topic started.

Ok next hoo har to have a crack at me,,, come on,,, I'm good for it.

[RD.]

Buccal .......... there is no need for me to travel in stealth mode, I have always been very straightforward as to who I am, I have also used the same user ID on every fish forum for many years.  That being said, I no longer have any type of vested interest in any particular brand of fish food.  I am retired from the fish business, and  I believe that I have already mentioned that.

 

What people feed their fish in AU, Canada, the USA, or anywhere else in the world is of no real concern to me.

 

 

My only reason for posting here is the exact same reason I have posted elsewhere when someone attempts to publicly condemn the use of garlic in fish feed.  I'm not saying that anyone has to feed fish food that contains garlic, but I'm sure as heck not going to sit back and allow those who know nothing more than what they have read in a single study, where no actual tropical fish food was even used, attempt to inform hobbyists what is, and what isn't safe for their fish.   

 

 

AND especially when that message is coming from someone who without question has a vested interest in swaying consumers away from others products, leaving their (non-garlic) food looking more appealing. 

 

It would be no different than if  back when I was still in the fish food biz I went around on forums starting threads stating that beta-glucan was dangerous to tropical fish, and found a post somewhere on the internet where they denounced the use of beta-glucan due to a study that they took part in (maybe?) where a certain form of beta-glucan caused lesions on a fishes arse. 

 

I have been fighting misinformation on forums such as this  since I first got on a computer many years ago.  Back then I had a cutting edge computer with a massive 1 GIG hard drive.  lol  

 

 

Ingredients such as spirulina, seaweed, kelp, various micro-algae and the beta-glucan found within some of them, and even garlic, all contain bioactive compounds, that have clearly demonstrated to have a probiotic effect on fish. Some of these compounds have been shown to have biological effects in fish such as growth promotion, immunostimulation, anti-stress, anti-bacterial, anti-fungal, anti-virals, and appetite stimulators. Other than the connection to terrestrial based lipids, and potential organ damage (from excessive lipid content found in certain "forms" of garlic) there is nothing to suggest that when used at appropriate levels garlic itself is unhealthy for fish kept in captivity. Quite the opposite.

 

 

I am personally all for incorporating these type of "natural" immune stimulants in to tropical fish food, just as they would be found in the natural diet of wild fish, and the long term ongoing feed trials involving (at the least) hundreds of species and tens of thousands of fish seem to prove that when used at appropriate levels garlic is just as safe as any other  raw ingredient currently being used in fish feed as an immunostimulant.    

 

 

If anyone has something to prove otherwise please do so. Otherwise it becomes a case of put up, or shut up. 

 

[Buccal]

RD, your wording above is what it takes for everyone to understand.
Purely to the point and answers still in good detail what I threw up in the air with those two topics,, garlic and terrestrial foods.
The only information I had to go by were studies that are full of scientific jargon that seems to have untied ends when not all ends of everything are understood to start with.

I know you try to stay as neutral and proffessional as possible.
For this you do look and are proffessional.
The scientific views which happen to support the foods you trust.

I think this whole topics problem has been tact.
Just because I'm a rep, it shouldn't mean I should be limited to what I can and can't say as compared to when I wasn't a rep.
Even if I was a little bad and mentioned Spectrum.
Maybe Waruna should take a little page from your book.

I know you had had enough,,,, so I appreciate you coming back and re-summing it all up in that better man placid manner:)