16 replies to this topic

[TJ__74]

Please fill out as much as possible below and give us a description of what is wrong with your fish.

Type of fish: Labidochromis Caeruleus
Symptoms: n/a
Other tank mates: Placidochromis Sp Electra, Bristlenose
Tank size / capacity: 180L
Type of Food fed: NLS Cichlid 1mm
Feeding frequency/amount: 3 pinches morning and evening
Substrate: River Sand
Type of filtration: Aquis 1000 Cannister
Frequency of filter cleans: Monthly
Frequency and % volume of water changes: 1-2 a week 25%
Last water change: Saturday 31/1/15
PH: 8.0
KH:
GH:
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
Ammonia: 0
Phosphate:
Water temp: 29
Medications used recently to date:
Any recent changes..new fish/filters/power outages etc etc: Electras added 31/1

 

Hi guys.

 

Is there a problem with the strain of Electric Yellows?  Once fully cycled, the first lot of fish I put in my tank was 5 x Electric Yellows (around 40-50mm).  I then put another five in from a different LFS.  I have now lost 3 of the 10.  2 or maybe even 3 may have been from the first batch.  I have become a bit paranoid, and that is the first thing I check for when I wake up or get home.  Last night, I actually saw one swim up to the top of the tank really quickly, and then just free fall nose dive back to the bottom, and that was it.  One of the others may have been beaten up, and stressed, had a fin missing.  I tried to separate,but obviously too late.  Is there a problem with them in Australia, or is this natural selection in action? The Electra's aren't causing a problem, they stick to themselves, and even get bullied by the Electric Yellows, despite having size on their side.

 

Thanks.

 

TJ

Edited by TJ__74, 04 February 2015 - 09:26 AM.

[malawiman85]

Hi Mate,

 

They shouldn't be dying. You have a problem.

 

First thing, make sure you follow the instructions carefully on the water test kits otherwise you will get false readings. For instance your nitrate reading is probably incorrect, has to be. Only way it could be right is if ammonia or nitrite are present at the start of a cycle but you would never expect 0, 0, 0. When did you set this tank up?

 

Take a water sample to a real LFS for testing.

 

How many tank mates do the yellows have?

I would do a 50% Water Change and stop feeding immediately... Make sure you take a sample to the LFS before doing the water change otherwise the readings wont be indicative of the tanks parameters.

 

Also, have a look at the fish and make a note of anything that doesnt look right. Markings, dots, spots, growths, sunken belly, etc. 

[TJ__74]

Hi mate, thanks for the response.

 

I thought the nitrate reading seemed a bit odd.  Maybe reagents out of date? I've had the water tested a few times by a LFS, I'll take another sample into a different LFS.

 

I started cycling in late November, and the fish have been in the tank for around 3 weeks now.  I currently have 7 x Electric Yellows, 5 x Electras 1 x Bristlenose and 1 x Albino Bristlenose.

 

On one of the rocks, I saw what looked like rust.  Now I've also had brown algae, and I'm very confident it isn't that.  Could the rock have traces of iron in it?  I've removed the offending rock, there may be another one in there.

 

Since i put the Electras in the tank on the weekend, they have all really come to life, I thought it was all smooth sailing now.  Prior to that, that Electric Yellows used to hide in the rocks all day. now they are out and about the tank most of the day.

 

Could it be that a LFS had poor stock, from poor breeding?  I understand Electric Yellows aren't imported anymore, and haven't been for 10 odd years.  Would that weaken the gene pool for them?

[jjm66smokey]

Hi TJ

 

Ditto what Malawiman said;

 

Plus..

 

What's the oxygenation in your water like?

Are the fish gasping for air at all?

 

What do you when you do your water changes? (üadding Prime , üaerating or agitating the water, ületting the water stand for a while before adding, û use water straight from hose without letting it run for a while... dissolved PVC/contaminants û

 

Is the water buffered or have you added filtered water straight from a kitchen tap, or rainwater? (you might've got a reading of pH 8.0 but it could be fluctuating û) ... or ground water  (possibly lots of contaminants û)

... http://www.water.wa....first/59824.pdf  The main health concern is disease from pathogenic microbes, but groundwater may also contain toxic substances which are difficult to detect such as arsenic, heavy metals, petroleum and pesticide residues, especially in areas where there is a history of human activity

 

What chemicals do you use to raise pH from the usual 7.5 (for tap water) ... how old are they, did you dissolve them first or add straight to tank?

 

What else have you put in the tank that might be dissolving chemicals into the water? (rocks, paint on ornaments)?

 

Iron's generally not too bad ... Dept of Water suggest a guideline for aquaculture of less than 10mG/L.

 

 

[TJ__74]

Hi Jim.

 

I want to increase the oxygenation in the tank.  i currently have a spray bar that is giving the surface a fair ripple.  I intend to get another internal filter to use, also to have as a backup.  I haven't really seen them gasping.  Their mouths are always opening and closing, not too much gill movement.  Never seen any of them at the surface of the tank.

 

When I do a water change, I'll vacuum and take around 40-50 litres out of the tank.  I'll then fill a bucket with water from the hose outside.  I let it run for a while, especially during the hot days, until the water runs cool.  I use the tap fitting to really try and oxygenate the water. I then add Stress Coat to the bucket, and pour into the tank with a smaller bucket.  I also use Rift Lake Buffer, purchased from a LFS 3 weeks ago, add this to a cup of water, dissolve and pour in.  I haven't used any buffer for a couple of weeks.  I also have a bit of limestone in the tank, maybe thats helping bump up the pH.

 

All I have in the tank in substrate (river sand) and rocks (limestone and grey river rocks)

[jjm66smokey]

Hi TJ

 

That sounds OK.   Have you tested the new water going in for ammonia/nitrite/nitrate ?

 

Is there anything that could be causing the fish shock or distress (kids / dog) banging on the tank... does it have lids?

(I once wondered why 2-3 goldfish were dying every week out of a pond with perfect water parameters and surrounded by plants... until I discovered the cat was playing Pat-the-Fish and the impact/shock was killing them LOL... cured with some black netting between the pond and the water feature above it)

[TJ__74]

Hi Jim.

 

There is a 2.5 year old running around it, but the novelty has work off on him a little. Yes, the tank has a hood with lids on it.

 

I'll test the fresh water tonight too.

 

Should I  expect any losses in this situation?

[dicky7]

get ya self a sponge filter it will do 2 things, provide good aeration and act as a bio filter and is good to have, once established if anything happens to your canister plus follow above steps as well

[TJ__74]

OK.

 

Thanks for the feedback guys.

 

I did a full water test again, and the Nitrates were up close to 40.  I've done a 50% water change, and it is back down to around about 20.  How is that?  More water change tomorrow?

 

I didn't realise how vigorously Nitrate bottle 2 needs to be shaken.  Someone mentioned there is almost like a powder in there that needs mixing.  That has made all the diference to my reading.  I'll still get it checked at the LFS.

 

Hopefully this regime will keep them happy and healthy.  And yes Dicky, a sponge filter will be there over the weekend.

 

CHeers.

[malawiman85]

40 isn't high but its as high as I let nitrates get in my tanks.

Anyhow, its not gonna be what killed your yellows. My bet is on a series of small ammonia spikes that have passed before they were detected by your testing... It happens, particularly in newish tanks with newly added stock. If im right I would use a bit of ammonia neutralising water conditioner daily until your filter sorts itself out.  

Also, I reckon you are over feeding.  I know its a tough call because I haven't seen you feed your fish but NLS is a pretty potent formula and doesn't need to be fed in the same quantities as cheaper foods... Just my 10 cents.

My other advice is always do 50% changes... It will half the nitrates every week.

[jjm66smokey]

Hi TJ - Dicky's advice is spot on and also, as a longer term measure, some plants in the tank may help to keep the nitrates down.

Yes the nitrates will do it...causing fatalities.

Check for any other dead fish or decaying organic matter in the aquarium.

Depending on where your filter is in the cycle, 20 is still higher than you want it.

If it was me I'd probably do daily 20% water changes until the nitrate level comes down (make sure you're also testing ammonia and nitrite levels).

J

[malawiman85]

Sorry but no way nitrate at 40, 4 days after a WC is gonna cause fatalities in otherwise healthy EY's.

[jjm66smokey]

Agreed... but if they're not healthy as a result of ammonia spike/s then won't reducing the nitrate further help their recovery?

[malawiman85]

Yeah you bet. Just the way I read your post looks like you were attributing the fatalities to nitrates@ 40, possibly I misread it. Anyway, otherwise I agree with what you were suggesting, more great advice.

Yes the nitrates will do it...causing fatalities.

My point above is just that nitrate @ 40 is in the normal range, all be it at the higher end and at present its 20 so I dont think theres any harm there for now. TJ should be worried about more ammo spikes and stabilizing the tank rather than focusing on the nitrates. Daily WC's probably wont help get the tank stable but yes it will lower the nitrates.
I would be inclined to keep an eye on the nitrates sure but focus on possible ammo and nitrite spikes. So stop feeding for a couple days then start feeding slowly at first and build up amount fed slowly but less than current amounts. Add some water conditioner daily that neutralises ammonia such as prime and add salt to assist with the stress of nitrite and ammonia. Just always make sure that species in the tank being treated arent sensitive to salt.

[TJ__74]

Thanks guys

 

I've always struggled to know how much to feed these guys, it seems like everyone has a different answer.  I actually started to count the amount of NLS (1.0mm) pellets I was giving for each fish, and allowing 2-3 each, two times a day.

 

Now with the Electras in there, they smash the food as soon as it touches the water.  It has actually fired the EY's up at feeding time, where previously they were a little timid. 

 

So I'll cut back on the amount i feed them. Still do twice a day feeds?  I was told juveniles are best fed twice a day.  Maybe I'll cut down to a pinch either once or twice a day.

 

I'll also look into water conditioner and salt.  Seems strange though, because I haven't picked up an ammonia spike for a good 6-8 weeks

[malawiman85]

Hey, could be wrong, might not be ammo. Spikes often occur without being detected. By the time you realise there is a problem and pull out the test kit, levels go back to 0. Problem is the damage is already done.
This only happens when a tank has newly cycled and hasnt really stabilized yet, new stock is added or some other majorly destabalising event occurs such as bacteria getting wiped out in your filter due to power failure or over enthusiastic cleaning of the filter.
Make sure you are gentle with the filter media, keep it submerged in tank water and dont expose it to water from the tap. A spike / cycle can also occur if you increase stock and feeding, etc. So there are a few reasons there that make me think it is ammonia.

I always feed younger fish more frequently but smaller amounts. So maybe stick to twice a day but less for a bit till your filter/tank settles.
One thing that surprised me about tanks was how major an impact overfeeding can be for the fish and the system.
Can be hard to get right though. Ive kept some preds that can eat ridiculous amounts but it does them no good and just fouls the water.
Remember halving the feed will pretty much halve the ammonia produced and that the filter then needs to process.
But again, im only assuming you are overfeeding. Just try erring on the side of caution for a while and see what you learn... might have to feed more, you might find you can feed less again.

[TJ__74]

I really think I may have been over feeding them.  When it was time to feed, they seemed a bit sluggish and timid.  Now, when it's time to feed its a free for all, and they are queuing up.

 

I also bought an internal filter, I got the new Sicce Shark 800 from Vebas, nice unit.

 

Thanks for your help everyone,hopefully with careful testing of the water and regular water changes, I'm going to be on the right path.