124 replies to this topic

[Den]

ado : comparing fish to dogs and calling me a hyporcrite is your last ditch attempt to defeat my arguement, anyone with common sense can see through it, just admint you cant win the dabate, why be such a sore loser

Fishcrazy : you are a deciever, you said you corrected me, but your dog was not raised in an Suburban environment which is bases of the arguement. Also I dont want to offend but the major issue with small pedigree dogs isnt with imprisonment, isolation and confinement, but the high rate of genetic abnormalities, as they are incestually inbred, genetical abominations created for the selfish pleasure of humans.

Dog Love? I tend to agree with Dr Scott Peck on the subject of true love. True love is not a feeling, it is an effort and it is a choice between two or more independant individuals. The major word here is "independant", the dog has no choice and no independance. The so called love you guys are experiencing "feeling" is not love at all, but a part of your primeval instinctual survival emotions (which you have incorrectly labed as love) that has been both twisted and perverted in a way to be directed towards your imprisoned and dominated animals.

It is impossible for a person to truely love a dog and a dog to love a person, the closest experience to love that you could reach would be to strike a relationship with a wild dog that is completely independant of your ownership and both parties would have to have a free choice on the subject of interaction. Both parties would also have to be free to leave each others company at any time with the knowledge they can survive independantly.

Cheers
Den

[Donna]

Den,

You do actually have some good points ...but as soon as someone says "common sense" they are trying to use their intellectual authority over you. There is actually no such thing as common sense, only shared understandings that people believe represent some objective truth...be aware that this is as socially constructed as your description of "love"

Also Den, in the animal and plant kingdom there is such a thing as symbiosis, mutualism and other such mechanisms. If you had taken the time to read my post (the huge one you would see that humans and dogs are actually dependent on each other. This has spanned across thousands of years. Symbiosis, co dependence whatever name or level it operates at, is a biological function and examples can be found in many other organisms. What would a virus be without a host? Or a clownfish without its loving tentacles? It just so happens that it could be a function of our genetics that when we are with a dog, we feel good....people who have had dogs around may have survived better and gone on to flourish and their offspring have had the same "feelings" Indigenous North Americans may well have struggled without dogs. Normal healthy dogs do not want to explore, they want to become part of a pack and a complex social system. Being with humans can provide that pack. When I feel really bad is when a dog is thrown out in the yard without a place in the pack...that dog will continually try and find a place (digging..etc)

It is simplistic to think that organisms can exist "independently" of each other, or that they want to be with their own species exclusively. That is not always the case and there are plenty of examples in this wonderful world to prove it.

Please refer to this very simple explanation

http://homes.jcu.edu...02/lecture8.htm

Regards,

Donna

[FishGal]

ado : comparing fish to dogs and calling me a hyporcrite is your last ditch attempt to defeat my arguement, anyone with common sense can see through it, just admint you cant win the dabate, why be such a sore loser

I don't believe it's a last ditch attempt to defeat your argument, I believe it's Ado telling it like it is, you CAN'T call people who keep dogs and not be calling yourself who keeps fish. If you're "imprisoning" one, then you're "imprisoning" the other too because neither are in their "natural habitat" or being kept in their "natural state".

As for this....

It is impossible for a person to truely love a dog and a dog to love a person

You don't know my dog and you don't know me.....and I doubt you've done ANY research to prove your statement above, so therefore you really have no right to use the word impossible IN your statement. There is a reason why they are called mans best friend....

Ado I pick subjects where I feel I will generally be in a minority view point and put myself on the chopping block for all your entertainment.

IMO you do it for your OWN entertainment and on alot of forums you'd be considered one of these CLICK and your repeated posts would be shut down quite quickly.....

[STEVEGREEN]

LMAO @ TROLL hahahahahahahha

Cheers
Steve Green

[Donna]

I've heard of coming out of the closet...but coming up from under the bridge?? LOL

Trip Trap


However, I don't believe in censorship...we are all part of this community, and exclusion is not the answer. I think we can value every contribution, and if we don't want to read it or respond...that's our choice. The topic is after all "Off the Wall"

[fishcrazy]

den she has still been taken from a large area to a smaller one.. if anything its a bigger incentive to want to roam. there is no visible deformities in my dog either

you definately picked the minority on this topic den .. but are you really not just jumping on the 'bandwagon' of many other people bringing up the same silly ideas? some things you post are good sense. but this .. seems well i cant say it here. is your mind open enough to accept other ideas once your set on one?

[STEVEGREEN]

with all the crap in hear i think the wall's fallen over hahahah

Cheers
Steve Green

[Den]

Hi Donna I always read your posts , even when they do go off topic as in this case, we are discussing the new urban setting, yes 15,000 years ago when dogs and man shared our space with freedom on both sides, without fences but we've taken that relationship to a new suburban setting with extreme incestual genetical manipulation and an isolated, imprisoned environement which is a completely different situation from ages past. I am aware of the symbiosis, I do not see any "healthy" symbiotic relationship in an urban setting between an person and their dog. We now have toilets that flush, so I dont need a dog to eat my waste, though in Asian villages this practice continues, dogs and pigs eating human poop. You do have many great points related to selfish reasons for dog ownership which supports my arguement.

Do I really need to explain why comparing fish to dogs is rediculous?, for starters due to structure of the brain fish to our current understanding do not have the same complex emotional needs that dogs have, if you do not understand the differences between the needs of dogs and those of fish you shouldn't be in this discusion, you need to instead pick up a basic animal book.

FishGal, Love? maybe I didnt explain it thoroughly enough? tried to keep it pretty simple, dont have space to go into detail.

Dont know you well?, Fishgal you are a one of a kind individual, just like everybody else...... one thing I know about you is you do not tolerate different points of view, you have a very rigid opinion and you take unneccessary offence when someone challenges it.

Troll? I do have alternative points of view on some issues, I like to create new discussions, and I dont disagree without putting up a valid reason, and I dont call people names when Im losing a debate, if these actions make me troll then thats what I am, though reading the description it doesnt seem to fit, I think its an unfair description.

Fishcrazy, reading your new information still fits previous comments that explain your dogs behaviour on why it doesnt leave, and although your dog may seem healthy, many sick animals were produced and culled in order for you to have that dog.

Cheers
Den

[FishGal]

Do I really need to explain why comparing fish to dogs is rediculous?, .

YOU think it's ridiculous, other's obviously do not, perhaps it is YOU who do not tolerate other's points of view?

you have a very rigid opinion, an attitude that stalls intellectual growth

Hmmm some could say that you were calling me dumb there Den....I'd be careful about that if I were you, it's not nice to label people you DON'T KNOW, especially on a public forum.

there's quite a bit I can read about you from your comments, but the World is not all about you.

At which point did I say it was??

and I dont call people names when Im losing a debate

I didn't name call, what I said was that ON SOME FORUMS, you'd be considered a Troll because some forums won't put up with threads that are started just to stir people....

And for the record, I don't consider myself to be losing this debate, purely because I haven't entered into it. I learnt along time ago Den, that when it comes to you and your "discussion" threads, unless those deciding to enter into the "discussion" agree with you and hold the same viewpoint as you do....then really there's no point....

you have a very rigid opinion and you take unneccessary offence when someone challenges it.

Nice to see that you just adjusted your words there.....though I will not change my first original reply to your post because it was what you FIRST posted and it wasn't polite IMO.

I do NOT take offence when someone challenges my opinion but I do not like being talked down to and ridiculed because of my opinion, which is what you have a habit of doing Den....

[Den]

^I dont know how you picked up those comments as I quickly changed them after second though as I could see they could potentially offend which was not my intention . I accept that my writing can at times appear condascending, its not intensional, its a character flaw I have that Im working on.

YOU think it's ridiculous, other's obviously do not, perhaps it is YOU who do not tolerate other's points of view?

I explained my reasons for my disagreement. If you or anyone else thinks there is a valid reason to argue aginst me that fish and dogs have the same needs please state your reasons clearly, otherwise you have no point to make other than you disagree for the sake of wanting to disgree with me.

I am a friendly debater, I dont call people names.

Fishgal it takes a bit of courage to put you opinions out there, I can understand you may not want to put yourself out there, to be honest sometimes I feel like a piece of bait.

I made my statements regarding your rigid opinion as you have a repeated habit of suggesting sensorship when ever anyone disagrees with you.

Cheers
Den

[FishGal]

Easily, there were up for a good 5 minutes. I read all new posts on this thread and then just clicked the quote button.

[Ronny]

Hmm, seems like you've found another touchy topic again Den

To start, I have two dogs and I currently live in a "towhnhouse"
I admit, my yard probably isn't the best for 2 dogs as it it small and doesnt have grass in the back.
However, I live right next to a huge park which they run around in everyday.

In my case though, I don't really feel too guilty about their environment as both of my dogs are from the pound.
The way I see it, they either live in a smaller prison with a time limit to be sold or destroyed,
or they can live with me and my wife in a small fenced off yard.
I really do put a lot of effort into providing my dogs with everything they need.

I won't say I 'love' my dogs but I do care for them very strongly, even more than I do for some humans.

I don't think of my dogs as pets, more like members of my little family.

My dogs have lived in suburbia all their lives, on a few occasions they've gotten out of the backyard, of course they ran out to go explore but they always came back.

I really don't think they would come back if they didn't like the conditions they lived in.

I do feel that there should be tougher rules for dog owners and for people to even have a dog.
As stated before, people often buy them as ornamental things to have around the house and show off.
But it's a fact of life that will always be there.
All we can do ourself is be a RESPONSIBLE dog owner.

In some cases, having a dog in captivity can be like prison, but given the right conditions and attention,
it can be quite a fun and happy experience for both humans and dogs.



Just my two cents

[Warby]

1). The backyard consists of walls and a locked gate that prevents the animal from leaving at its own free will, this situation fits the definition of imprisonment. Extended periods of solitary confinement of a socialable animal over its lifetime can be classified as a form of torchure. I'm sorry to people who find this reality offensive.

2). To prove wether or not your dog is happy in its/your suburban home or imprisoned against it own free will, leave your gate open, if your dog is still there in its backyard 24 hours later I will stand corrected.

Den, do you have children? If so, do you allow them to roam the streets as they please and leave the doors/gates open to ensure they can? Do you consider it torture or imprisonment to keep children "locked in" ? ... I understand what you're getting at but it comes down to part of what Donna was saying, it is not imprisonment but protection - Dogs no better understand or know how to protect themselves from the majority of dangers in modern society than a child does. They are not emotionally or intellectually developed enough so we provide a safe environment where we know our dogs will be well fed, free from hazards, comfortable, happy, etc..

And, as much as I envy the tanks you have, to say "im not a hypocrite because I give my fish big tanks" is a cop-out ... a 10' tank is nothing compared to the volume of water found in your fishes natural habitat but you do the best you can to give them a comfortable environment, just as responsible dog owners give their dogs the most comfortable environment they can.

-Dave

[Den]

I really don't think they would come back if they didn't like the conditions they lived in.

There are a few reasons, food dependance the major one, and pack instincts if you're considered leader/provider of the pack. You must also realise the suburban environment offers little resources for a stray animal to survive, so they have no better alternative than to come home, consider it this way:

Think of a prison in the middle of the desert, there is food and water at the prison, you can leave at any time but walking only on your own two feet(no car or other modern transport), so what are your options? escape and die of starvation and thirst in the dessert? or do you go back to the prison because its a better option to the desert, does this mean the prison is a great place and where you want to be?

Den, do you have children? If so, do you allow them to roam the streets as they please and leave the doors/gates open to ensure they can?

Now we compare the needs of raising a human adolescent to a dog, sorry I dont understand this? I agree both humans and dogs need nuturing and protection during adolesence, a child is reared and nutured with the intention to give it the opportunity to one day lead an independant life, a dog is reared for permanent imprisonment.

Dogs no better understand or know how to protect themselves from the majority of dangers in modern society than a child does

Dave I completely agree with you and your statement supports my arguement that the suburban environment is no place for a dog. Current options are dangerous urban environment and long periods of isolation in a small barkyard prison, neither areas fit the needs of these manmade mutated animals.

Cheers
Den

[Warby]

Now we compare the needs of raising a human adolescent to a dog, sorry I dont understand this?

Not comparing their needs, although in alot of regards yes their needs are very similar.. they each look to us as their provider and protector.. I was just bringing them in to question your imprisonment/torture statement

[Ronny]

[quote name='Den' date='Mar 9 2009, 06:58 PM' post='120624']
There are a few reasons, food dependance the major one, and pack instincts if you're considered leader/provider of the pack. You must also realise the suburban environment offers little resources for a stray animal to survive, so they have no better alternative than to come home, consider it this way:

Think of a prison in the middle of the desert, there is food and water at the prison, you can leave at any time but walking only on your own two feet(no car or other modern transport), so what are your options? escape and die of starvation and thirst in the dessert? or do you go back to the prison because its a better option to the desert, does this mean the prison is a great place and where you want to be?


I see what you're saying there, but if that were the case, I'd expect them to come back a day or so later, starved and scared.
Instead, he runs around the park, chases a few birds then comes back under an hour later.
Also, when he does go out, he never goes far unless he can see me, if I stay in the yard, he wont venture far enough for me to be out of site.

If I hide then he comes back close enough to know where I am lol.

[Den]

Thats all sounds fine Ronny, I know you have a good heart, and I would agree many dog owners like you have the best of intentions, but consider what happens when you are not there, the length of the periods you are not there, the area in which they are confined and the periods they spend alone in that space, is it a good life? that decision is up to you.

Cheers
Den

[golden_dase]

If I hide then he comes back close enough to know where I am lol.

Body odour goes a long way! LOL!
*Joking!

Soz to Den and others, but i couldnt resist going off topic and teasin Ronny...

Ok everyone, feel free to go back to the debate now...

[Ronny]

I'm not argueing with ya there Den, if it were up to me I'd have acres upon acres for as many dogs as I could handle lol.

However as I stated before, my dogs are from the pound, I'd rather confine them and try to keep them happy and healthy than have them put down cos someone else decided to buy a dog on impulse.


We did have one dog, but decided to get another to keep him company while were not home.

Wether or not it's a good life, I feel it's a better life

And Kev, my body odour, doesn't just work on dogs, You're just jealous lmao

[dazzabozza]

Ok Den you've exposed us to what you believe is a problem. What's your thoughts on how to address it?

Daz