96 replies to this topic

[Cawdor]

Steve, I never said it was a non-issue or said that I don't care about it. That would have been dismissive. All I said is that there is an easy solution to the problem presented and that somehow all of a sudden it's blown out.

How are private dealings between two parties of concern to us? We provide a platform that allows people to communicate. Part of that is to arrange swap or sales or items/livestock.
In that respect we are no different to the Quokka. What happens after two parties have made contact is none of our business. Note I have used the word "business" this time as opposed to "concern", as the word "concern" could be misinterpreted, like you have, to mean that we do not care. If a member gets ripped off, of course we care. But there really isn't much we can do about it or have an obligation to do about it. Because the transaction is solely between two parties. If we were to be held responsible for how people deal with each other in selling and buying, the classifieds would be taken down for sure.

To bring this back to topic: I am yet to hear how a mandatory age field would be enforced and checked. And yes, I don't want to spend my time working on something that has no tangible benefit to the PCS and is not enforceable when it takes a few seconds for someone to send a PM or reply to a post asking the age of the person.

[Scales]

Well here's one for discussion of disclosing the age... while the disclosure of age may well help and assist you with the dealing with minors, unfortunately by disclosing the age of minors, these minors may be exposed to those who prey on minors for activities that may not relate to fish keeping... and from the sound of it, you have lots of experience dealing with minors in your field of work, so you are probably aware that despite warnings, some minors are still gullible and may make certain decisions that may not make sense to "adults"... hence the issue with your frustation.

So it is considered appropriate to implement the Age feature if there is an increase potential that these minors are put at risk??

hense minors of a certain age should not be allowed to sell or buy in the classifieds and a need for ages known.

a main point of interest that i was trying to avoid but will now bring up was the fact that the other week i went to a persons house not knowing they were a minor (one of the pm communication with no call situations). they answered the door and i asked is their dad there and they said no it was them that was posting on the forum, and i was absolutely shocked at the fact that there was no adult at the premisis and the child wouldnt have been any older than 12 or 13. it was absolutely deplorable that there was no supervision and as i am very knowledgable on the dealings with minors said that i cannot come in and can they please give me a call when their parents get home, his response was 'its ok my parents dont care if i deal with adults off the forum'!!!!!!

now to all those that think i am/was being defensive im not and i take all views on board, whether they are wrong or right in my opinion, as they are your views but i often fail to see people take the same tact in taking in other peoples views. i am also shocked that with all the pointers and hints given to this subject that it took this long for someone to recognise that this is a MASSIVE issue on a public forum.

if you feel i have offended you in any way, and that goes to everyone, i appologise but that is one of the downfalls of communicating through a forum. you can only take things in in your own views and hense if you are of a defensive mindset thats the way you will take them as i have taken no offence what so ever to all views in this topic.

clay

[Paddy]

But the whole situation could have been avoided by asking them as per Cawdors post 2689286 posts ago. (exaggeration reqd)

[werdna]

Sorry Clay, but you started complaining about your time being wasted, now you are complaining about peoples parenting skills?

[STEVEGREEN]

unbelievable

Cheers
Steve Green

[Hydonia]

Clay,

That would of been a horrible situation to be in. I have been to younger members houses but NOT when their parents weren't home. But isn't that the parents responsibility?
I don't see how forcing members to add ages tho would be of benifit, since we would need a check system in place, and like Tim, I have yet to hear how that would be put in place.

[Kieran]

If an age system were implemented and enforced for many of the above reasons, would it not be an admission of liability on behalf of the PCS to ensure the safety of children who interact on the forum? Whether or not the PCS should be liable, if we admit to it could the club be prosecuted in the instance that a child is harmed, when the PCS has tried to protect them and failed? The same would go for people being robbed, ripped off, assaulted etc.

[Scales]

the fact is that im not complaining at all paddy, just observing and reporting. it is not my perogative to ask someone their age as i dont care if i buy off a younger member or not, even though the case has been as i have stated before, some of my best relationships are with children but there are parents involved too. if i want to sell/buy/swap and not double check their age in the first place is yes my problem but i understand, although frustrating, it is part of dealing with classifieds through a forum.

the issue is that if a cyber-pred does take this approach, aka my very disturbing situation, it will be the pcs in the press as thats the forum of communication used to do the deal. if this does end up the case there goes all cred for the pcs and all wa forums in general as it would be the second site to have bad publisity (albeit through totally differant circumstances) and you can kiss your reputation with any government department if the press reports a minor getting abused by a forum member.

like i said i didnt want to bring this up as there are minors who frequent all aspects of this forum but maybe its a good thing that they read it so some of them will be more careful in future regardless of if the age info aspect gets changed or not.

clay

[Paddy]

Didn't say you were complaining, much like your other replies, half read the posts and skipped through to shoot out another post. You start worrying about this and where does it end? My 8 year old sister knows how to put items on ebay, email, use gumtree but she would never be put in that situation because her parents supervise her on the computer and also would not leave her alone in the house. At the end of the day you can't protect everyone from everything and I personally think that younger members are the first ones to lie about age. If you believe this is necessary Clay have you got any suggestions on how to implement it, as asked by the committee members?

[Scales]

If an age system were implemented and enforced for many of the above reasons, would it not be an admission of liability on behalf of the PCS to ensure the safety of children who interact on the forum? Whether or not the PCS should be liable, if we admit to it could the club be prosecuted in the instance that a child is harmed, when the PCS has tried to protect them and failed? The same would go for people being robbed, ripped off, assaulted etc.

it would actually be the other way around, if nothing has seemed to be done then that will be a show of negligance to try and protect minors, if the minor lies about their age then the pcs can say 'we are of a strong belief that protection of minors is important because......but if that minor choses to be dishonest with their information then the pcs can not do anything about the current situation'.

no the pcs is not liable, the same as the 'quocka' as people have mentioned, but the pcs would be a considerable disadvantage when asked by the press 'what preventative measures are in place to avoid such a situation' if nothing is done.

in this day and age you are better to watch your back and take measures to do your best to avoid a situation than it is to mop up a mess.

clay

[Cawdor]

the issue is that if a cyber-pred does take this approach, aka my very disturbing situation, it will be the pcs in the press as thats the forum of communication used to do the deal.

I'm not sure how a mandatory age field would change the situation you describe, apart from making it actually easier for predators to select minors.
Your first post was about opinions on enabling identification of someone's age if they are under 18 in order to know if you're dealing with a child in discussions and classifieds (I paraphrase your post). Now we are talking about child predators?? It makes my head spin.

[Scales]

i have made a suggestion earlier in this topic on how to regulate but will theorise for the sake of the debate.

-having the classifieds as a adults only or 16+ section that the age of the member has to be verified by the member either sending a copy of id to the pcs admin or visiting a trusted lfs, in the case of the lfs the lfs then goes onto the forum and verifies the age of the member via pm to an admin. a 5 minute exercise that truthfully the lfs can spare.
-having an ebay type argeement when the member joins/verifies they have to read through the t+c and then click on agree, thus making a binding agreement between the pcs and the member that the pcs can enforce when a situation of age discrepancy comes to light

the two above examples, as well as the honour example i gave before, would in my opinion significantly reduce the risk of a minor being exposed unnessicarily to the pitfalls of an adult world, where a child has no armorment to deal with the situations.

clay

[sandgroper]

No matter what your age is you need to keep an open mind on things . After all you can never know to much when it comes to fish keeping . cheers steve

[Iamsam]

age of the member has to be verified by the member either sending a copy of id to the pcs admin or visiting a trusted lfs, in the case of the lfs the lfs then goes onto the forum and verifies the age of the member via pm to an admin. a 5 minute exercise that truthfully the lfs can spare.

Wow, invasion of privacy much, i can tell you 100% that i would never send copies of my id to the pcs of an lfs or anybody for that matter, my id should never have to leave my hands, again the risk of somebody stealing your identity is way to easy!, who am i to know were these details will end up! and that would take heeps of time, even if it only took 5 minutes each, of the 3,225 regristed members wanted to post in the classifeds that would be like 16 125 minutes! thats a lot of time! thats like 270 hours!

[golden_dase]

Clay, wouldn't it be much easier if the "adult" contacts the "juvie" and asks for his/her age when dealing with someone, if there's no age listed in his/her profile? In all fairness, I think giving more work for the PCS committee members to do means their time and effort will be drawn away from the core of the PCS; improving the club, CHATROOM etc..!

the two above examples, as well as the honour example i gave before, would in my opinion significantly reduce the risk of a minor being exposed unnessicarily to the pitfalls of an adult world, where a child has no armorment to deal with the situations.

clay

If the buyer is someone under 18, it means they can't drive to your place to buy so their parents, grandmother, uncle, older siblings etc. would need to take them, so the "juvie" will have a family member present when dealing with someone on the forum.. true?

-having the classifieds as a adults only or 16+ section that the age of the member has to be verified by the member either sending a copy of id to the pcs admin or visiting a trusted lfs, in the case of the lfs the lfs then goes onto the forum and verifies the age of the member via pm to an admin. a 5 minute exercise that truthfully the lfs can spare.
ht

clay

It also only takes you 5mins to contact the buyer/seller to confirm age...


Anyways, sorry if all the above doesn't make sense.. had 1 drink too many.. Happy Easter Everyone!

Cheers!
Kevin

[Kieran]

Happy Easter Kevin

Ditto to what he said about drink in regards to my above posts

[Cawdor]

-having an ebay type argeement when the member joins/verifies they have to read through the t+c and then click on agree, thus making a binding agreement between the pcs and the member that the pcs can enforce when a situation of age discrepancy comes to light

Now this we can work with as we can put something about age and classifieds in the T&C. Anything else in my opinion would be seen as too much of a privacy issue and people would no doubt complain that the PCS is too strict (requiring ID to use the classifieds.).

All that would be decided (and I think we should have a poll about this) is:

1. do the majority of members support a restriction of the classifieds to a certain minimum age?
2. if that is confirmed to be the case, what would the minimum age be?

Personally I still think it's the parent's responsibility to know what their kids are up to online. But if the majority shares Clay's concern and wants to restrict the classifieds, we can put something in the T&C.

[dazzabozza]

A few issues here guys. (I say all this in the nicest way of course )

The thread is roughly 17 hrs old and its intent appeared to be about general dealings with minors and wanting to know people's actual ages prior etc. From there there's been a handful of replies revolving around "why should age matter", "has nothing to do with knowledge" etc. Only in the last few hours has the intent changed to be more about the dealings between adults and unsupervised minors and suggested that minors not be allowed to use the Classifieds. A totally different ball game.

Personally I wouldn't agree with minors being blocked from the Classifieds. As it stands each club member is entitled to use the forum and club resources equally. The only time you waive those rights is when you breach continually the T&C (resulting is a possible ban). Those rules apply to all forum and club members.

Clay regarding your question as to why there are no minors on the committee, at the last AGM no nominations of a minor (that I'm aware of) were made and therefore none were elected. In the past there have been under 18's on the committee. I can see your point about minors being properly represented by having one on the committee, I'd like to think we have a broad enough age bracket on the current committee to do this. I can also almost guarantee that if a minor was on the committee they would vote against minors be blocked from using the Classifieds. I've been in the hobby since roughly 12yrs of age and would hate to think if I was somehow restricted from enjoying its full potential. All club members are the voice of the club so even if you're not on the committee you can still raise your concerns for the committee to action.

As mentioned earlier this thread is just over a day old and already people are jumping to the conclusion that the committee has made a decision, is wiping their hands of this and that the club is being poorly presented. Each committee member has the same rights to participate in discussions and debates as the rest of the forum users (albeit we have to word our replies wisely because of the potential backlash). E.g. my banter, photo threads etc have zero to do with committee or club representation. No single committee member can decide the outcome of such questions. The same debate, discussion, personal opinions will come up during the monthly committee meetings (the next one is approx. 8 days away), it does not mean that the opinions expressed so far by committee members will be followed.

All opinions and questions are best raised like they have been in this thread (or in private directly to the committee) so we can properly present the information and discuss during the committee meeting. So if you have a concern regarding the forum / club then ask that it be raised and discussed. Then wait for an official response from the committee (this generally comes from the PCS_Committee forum user). Enough with the committee bashing already as it can be very counter-productive. If people are concerned with the welfare or performance of the club I can tell that it is at a record peak. Not sure what year it was (2004/05?) but the club almost folded. It is where it is today because of past / present committees and the continued support from club members and sponsors.

If the PCS has a legal liability then something will have to be done. Until that has been confirmed feel free to discuss further, the committee will also do the same.


Daz

[Scales]

sorry i think i miss represented my idea about the lfs idea and pcs idea.

-send a copy via fax or photo copy to the pcs admin to verify age (the same as you would have to fax off id for car/boat/house loan)

-go to a lfs who will then sight your id and then pass a verification pm to admins (no record or reproduction of id needed)

kevin that would still not deal with the problem/issue of protection of minors

iamsam you are obviously a minor yourself or someone who has never had to deal with a car yard, mortgage broker or finantial institution without your parents as to do any of the above you need to part with copies of your id. as far as time involved is concerned a concerted effort to protect minors such as yourself (if indeed you are a minor) is in my opinion worth the time involved

daz, i was not jumping to any conclusions just pointing out in a roundabout way that a commitee member/mod should be held to a higher standard and reputation as far as responses are concerned because of their positions. i do not have any intention to 'commitee bash' and am in the unfortunate possition of not being able to voulunteer my input to such a membership via a commitee. if it came across that way i appologise to the commitee, its members and associates

and a huge happy easter to you all too *clinks drinks with kieran and kev and anyone else enjoying a beverage*

clay

[Kieran]

Iamsam is not a minor