31 replies to this topic

[tim-o]

Please fill out as much as possible below and give us a description of what is wrong with your fish.

Type of fish:Mangrove Jack app 15cm
Symptoms:Was flashing, now lethargic, heavier than normal breathing, suspect eyes buldging, lack of colour
Other tank mates: Nill
Tank size / capacity:270l
Type of Food fed:Pieces of raw or cooked frozen prawns, pieces of fish that were frozen, occasional spectrum pellets (doesent like them much), glass shrimp either live or frozen in brine sollution
Feeding frequency/amount:Once a day
Substrate:Thin layer of shell grit and some scattered stones
Type of filtration:Canister, 1200l/h
Frequency of filter cleans:Hardly ever
Frequency and % volume of water changes:40-80lt once a week or fortnight
Last water change:Yesterday 80l
PH:7.6
KH:
GH:
Nitrite:0
Nitrate:10-20ppm
Ammonia:0
Phosphate:
Water temp:28
Medications used recently to date:Pondmax KnockOut Ick Control
Any recent changes..new fish/filters/power outages etc etc:

Edited by tim-o, 01 April 2013 - 10:19 PM.

[tim-o]

Hi guys, I have had this Jack for about a month or so after building my confidence up from loosing a young saratoga to suspect ammonia poisoning from uneaten marron pellets. The Jack has been doing well and was no longer feeding the marron the pellets and monitored the water quality closely.

I added some glass shrimp I caught (the ones that existed were quickly eaten by the jack) about 2 weeks ago and after a few days I noticed several small snails appearing (DOH!). The Jack started flashing or scratching itself so I treated the tank with Ick Control and eventually let the marron go back where I caught him as he lost a claw (apparently this treatment may have made his shell etc very hard) The flashing has reduced but now the Jack is not looking too well (last few days)and has become lethargic and loss of appetite. I feel that his eyes are buldging out a bit and he sometimes trys to scratch them.

I did a water change yesterday and treated the tank again. I have added some salt today, prob about 200g but my refractometer only shows about 1ppT. I feel he is a bit stressed all of the sudden and opts to stay hidden. I added two small fish today from the shop and he had some interest initially to chase them but they are still swimming, he cant be bothered. Will bringing the salinity up to say 5ppT help and how quick can I do it.
Roughly how much salt will it take? Im worried atm. The only other thing is that I have not taken the filter apart for a clean since it was running with Tang cichlids, just did a full water change and after a few days added the toga, I mean the cycle is still working and theres plenty of flow so I saw no need......Some slight film on the surface as it was with the toga, evident with the unpopped bubbles forming. Thankyou in advance for reading and any help is muchly appreciated, Cheers Tim

[bigjohnnofish]

im no pro with jacks but raising the salt levels has to help....

mate had issues with his jack scratching frequently and we concluded he had some sort of parasitic infection so he basically raised the salt level each day untill the jack no longer sctratched and then water changed the salt out each day till he was happy the salt level was low enough to return his gibbi to the tank....

[tim-o]

Not much help here......members must be on holidays.....I have treated for a bacterial infection with Aquari-Cycline after another 80l water change this afternoon

Edited by tim-o, 02 April 2013 - 05:23 PM.

[ant86]

Probly your best bet mate would be to have a chat with ollie/docfish from aquotix, lve never had a jack so l couldnt help you
sorry champ.

[tim-o]

Hope the antibiotics does the trick, he looks kinda swollen all over and hanging near the top atm, the two fish are even happy to be about 5 cm from him so he is definitely crook, I hope I have caught this in time, I will give Ollie a ring at Aquotix tomoz cheers

Edited by tim-o, 02 April 2013 - 09:18 PM.

[tim-o]

I just read the post about the importance of shakin the F outa the API nitrate test bottles and tube and as it turns out after these recent 2 30% water changes my nitrate is higher than first thought. The end colour is red so it is upward of 40ppm, maybe this is the cause of my jack's stress allowing disease to take over??? I dont want to do another water change and upset the medication, or maybe I should and add the appropriate amount of medication for the new water.

[Buccal]

Because you haven't maintained the cleaning of your filters,,, they have become completely chocked with waiste.
The beneficial bacteria would be working over time,, thus turning your filters into nitrate factories.
Clean all your filters in buckets of tank water.
Then every 2 months from then on do a filter clean.
Do 30% daily water changes,,,then when nitrate levels are down to a safe level (orange on charts) resume to 30% water change a week... If you see Oliver, ask for seachem prime as this will detox your nitrate as well as ammonia and nitrites.
Use seachem prime after every water change.
The seachem prime will safe guard your tank until the appropriate re-balance is found.
Also ask for DMZ, a antibiotic which is your last hope for healing your fish if not to late.
Bloating body, lifting scales, popping eyes with sluggishness is all internal and cellular damage that is caused by excessive levels of one of three common toxins,, being (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate).
Hope it pans out well for you

[tim-o]

Cheers, yeah, I only use prime. I never though nitrate to be toxic? When I had a community tank I would clean the filter out when i noticed a reduction in the outlet flow which meant it was chockas. Will give it a clean out tho, looks pretty clean through the transparrent body.....

[bigjohnnofish]

nitrate is the least toxic of the 3.... but high levels of 80ppm or more isnt beneficial for your fish... like to keep everything under 40ppm but 20ppm is nicer.... sounds like you may have the cause of the problem...

[tim-o]

Well, did another wc last nite and medicated the new water, added more salt and a squirt of bacteria in a bottle (cant remember what its called). Got 20ppm nitrate now, 4ppT salinity, plenty of airation and lights are off, fingers crossed. If he pulls through I might change his name from Sooky to Lucky!

[Mr_docfish]

The only symptoms you have mentioned are flashing and possible bulging eyes - possible external parasite issue or water quality issue irrtating the skin and eyes.
I like Johnnos idea of increasing the salt level - this does a number if things - freshwater ecto-parasites generally hate salt water, and some effects of water quality issues can be reduced - salt reduces the uptake of some toxins through the gills.
Mangrove Jacks are a marine species, and all but new born fry prefer full marine salt levels.
Push up the salt levels (get a suitable salinity meter) maybe even add some rift lake salts in order to increase the calcium and magnesium - these salts help in a similar way. And keep the pH up above 7.0
As you may have noticed, the aquaricycline will have made a mess of the tank by making it brown/black and causing a foamy scum on tge surface - this is not a problem, but best to water change it out a bit before you add the salts.
Keep in mind that salts, particularly the rift lake salts, will also block the uptake of the antibiotics, so stop using it after adding the salts - save your money.

If there are any other symptoms, PM me directly (so I dont miss it) so I can revise the treatment.

Sometimes the simplest treatment is the best - particularly when we are not sure of the real cause of the problem... First steps to these sorts of issues is to bring the water quality to the best you can provide, then try one thing and see how the fish react... From there, if the fish still look poorly, then you can narrow down the possibilities...



Oh, and adding bacteria at the same time as adding an antibiotic defeats the purpose of adding the bacteria...

[ice]

This sounds like a mixture of stuff ups from the beginning. (No offence mate)

1. Increase either your water change frequency or amount changed. (I do 50% weekly without fail)

2. Stop feeding live/crap food and get that jack eating hikari massivore or carnivore pellets ASAP. I know its cool to watch the little guy destroying shrimp and feeder fish but its not in the wild and its certainly not doing it any good in your aquarium, a good quality pellet will provide exceptional nutrients to your fish with no risk of disease and less tank fouling.

3. Stop buggering around with your salinity and making the poor fish regulate its internal salt levels, add a small amount of salt if you must but I rarely do this and only if an injury has been sustained.

I think if you keep your water quality under control, get this fish onto a good disease free diet and stop feeding/lights off for a few days your little jack should be fine. They are a bloody tough fish.

Also if your fish doesn't already have something that it can fit and hide inside, give it something. Mangrove jacks are ambush predators and feel safe and happy when they have something to retreat to and sleep in.

If you're not positive if your fish has some kind of parasite or infection then Id also stop treating the tank, this is only going to add to the stress of your fish.

Prime is the best stuff on the market in my opinion and its what I have always used on all my tanks.

-Dave

[Buccal]

I agree, the essential needs of dietary intake are concentrated into a quality pellet.
The fish will get all it needs from a scientific formulated food.
Because of its concentration, there is less solids going into water which reduces dissolved solids in the end,,,, which means it takes longer for the nitrates to build and better water quality between water changes.
Long term excessive nitrates generates disease sooner or later.

[Mr_docfish]

Technically, you can put a fish from fresh into salt water with no damage but you cant go backwards - going from salt to fresh, causes water to soak into the gills of the fish to a point where they may swell up and become damaged... So you have to drop the salinity slowly - over hours...

Prime (metabisulphites) will only last in the aquarium for up to 48hours... So it needs to be topped up regularly if there is a problem with the water - in particular ammonia and nitrite... Calcium salts from the rift lake salts can deal with nitrites and other toxins 24/7 for ever...

If you are using Prime or a similar product, check it has not gone off from being stored or transported at high temps, or when anaerobic bacteria get in (from rinsing the lid in the tank) and cause a rotten egg smelling gas (different to the normal sulphur smell).... I have come accross these issues time and time again - if you have trouble with the fish after a water change, buy a new bottle for the time being until the fish come good - then try the old one again, and if the original symptoms re-occur, then you know....

Just a bit of background info...

And I agree with the feeding - keep away from live foods if you can...

Edited by Mr_docfish, 03 April 2013 - 09:10 PM.

[tim-o]

Well he hasnt gotten worse, not as stressed, but still not well, he's just quite swollen, and hasnt eaten in a few days. Doesnt flash any more. I always use prime with water changes. I did another small wc to skim off some of the surface and added a bit more salt, its @ 5ppT now and ph is 7.8. I aim to provide a better (less risky) diet. I have spectrum pellets but he doesnt really eat them and I dont want uneaten food floatn around. I think my nitrate has been alot higher than my results have been showing and may have contributed to stress as well as being introduced to his new home, I was told he was wild caught. I added the bacteria because i thought the ick treatment I had been applying may have affected the bacteria levels. I am just so paranoid after loosing the toga so suddenly recently. See how it goes now, Ive done all I can, I just figure there is a fluid build up inside of him which may be from a bacterial infection, was just hoping someone had come across this before. I guess I have most of the answers, just lost a bit of confidence. Thanks guys, Ill keep you posted. Here's a pic, he was alot more patchy yesterday, looks like he's fed well but like I said, hasnt eaten in 3 days, Dropsy?

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[Mr_docfish]

He is definitely bloated with pop eye - could be bacterial, but my money is on kidney problems due to poor water quality....

Id still try clean water with added salts to dehydrate him and hope his kidneys start functioning properly again...

If it is abdominal dropsy, the only hope is DMZ - Check its rear end - if it produces slimy white poo, then it is a good possibility, so worth a try...

Edited by Mr_docfish, 03 April 2013 - 09:43 PM.

[tim-o]

Will keep an eye on him, is feeding an issue at this point? I dont think he will tho, he was just starting to get used to me feeding and I have 2 small fish swimmin around so I figured that when he hunts them he will be ready for a feed. Until I get him used to pellets, what would be a safe food? Is frozen fish and prawns and glass shrimp I have caught and frozen in brine putting him at risk of bacteria exposure? Or should I stick to aquarium intended frozen foods

Edited by tim-o, 03 April 2013 - 10:00 PM.

[Mr_docfish]

Good idea...

[tim-o]

What, the live fish? I got them on Monday as he was not interested in anything else so I wanted to test his appetite, thats when he started gettin worse. Or are you being sarcastic? I figure now there cant be anything wrong with them with all the stuff that Iv been adding so I left them in lol
I just seen a bit of poop from his arse and it wasnt slimey white, looked brown, although the water is red