52 replies to this topic

[Fish Antics]

I take your Point Chris. with Discuss most are "Symphysodon" but with natural locality variations. These have been line bred and mixed so much and have been a part of the aquarium hobby for so long there are so many varieties now that are so well established in the hobby. It is only relatively recently , last couple of decades, that hobbiests have begun to realise the importance of keeping locality lines seperate. This is the reason that many of the peacocks we have around at the moment are "uncertain".
I would consider jacobfreibergi and stuartgranti to be seperate species and therefore any cross a Hybrid. But A Stuartgranti Chitimba and a Stuartgranti Maleri would be a mix as they are both Aul. Stuartgranti. This in to me is still not a good thing as the localities should be kept pure.
Line breeding is when you take breed fish from the same species and locality and breed those you to bring out a quality that you think is attractive, for example The Jacobfribergi Eureka "Red Ruben " where fish were selected for breeding to increase its red colouration.

Tony

[Poncho]

One thing to consider as to why a cichlid society would approve of one hybrid and not another is the risk they pose to the current integrity of the species' in question in the region of the club. Discus don't pose any major threat in Perth to naturally occurring forms, whereas there is concern that marble peacocks can potentially corrupt natural varients that have been introduced to Perth or Australia.

[cichlid hunter]

I'm just wondering the marble or ob peacock doesnt it come from the aulonocara family and then crossed with another aulonocara? If so that would that be the same as discus?

No, One is a zebra which is a mbuna and the other is a aulonocara which is a peacock which is a hap.. nearly opposite fish.

like a dog cross a cat lol

[madasa]

Discus are color morphs line bred form the original wild colours to bring out the variants which are available now.

I dont consider marble peacock hybrids either - I appreciate the point about jacobfriegi and stuargarti but to me a peacock is a peacock is a peacock.

Not saying Im right thats just my opinion.

Cobs - I dont think you'll have probs offloading to an LFS, sponsor or otherwise. One comment - in that picture your fry do still have egg sacs so wait till they completely go before full feeding and just offer morsels for now.



Pete

[Kimbo]

I have to disagree with you there Pete, how can a marble peacock which is a cross between a zebra and a peacock like Scott pointed out not be classified as a hybrid? Aulonocara breeding with a Maylandia or whatever they are called now is definetley a hybrid in my opinion.

[Den]

Marbled peacocks and most discus are hybrids it is not a matter of opinion it is a matter of scientific fact!

[cichlidnut]

cichlid hunter said

"No, One is a zebra which is a mbuna and the other is a aulonocara which is a peacock which is a hap.. nearly opposite fish".

:? just wondering if you can tell me where that's written in a book so i can read more into it just curious.

[madasa]

A discus is a discus is a discus - a colour morph cannot be a hybrid

[Den]

Pete can I recommend you take a look at this site which explains discus hybridisation:

http://www.gcca.net/fom/discus.htm

[Mr_docfish]

oooh is it jut me, or is it getting hot in here?

Just did a search on fishbase.org for aulonocara, and I could not find a marbled or OB variant. This would suggest that this fish does not occur in the wild, which makes it non distinct species.
Whether it is a sport that came about from inbreeding, just like albinos or similar, or it has occurred through 'unacceptable means', one must accept that it is still a very strong commercial product around the world. I mean you can even get 'German bred' ones (some think this makes them better). If this is a fish variant that gets someone into keeping cichlids, then it has a good side to it.
Those people that do not agree with it, don't breed it, it's simple. Eventually, the fish that all cichlid keepers want in the end will be the harder to get wild, location distinct species. As long as there are 'good' fish keepers out there like most of us on this forum, then there will always be those hard to get fish species that we will all want.
Some of us have to start somewhere, and the cheaper importable varieties are the usual start. Eventually all of us will reach the levels of the experienced cichlid breeders out there and breed the fish species that many of us find 'more acceptable'. Just look at discus, every one now wants the wild browns and greens and are prepared to pay higher prices for them, this is a more extreme case however, that is ending in a situation where wild strains and man-made strains are at the same level of value, the best for both worlds (enthusiast and commercial).



doc

[cichlidnut]

cichlid hunter said

I dunno if its even in a book...??

Don't take this the wrong way but how can you say that the marble peacock is a cross between a zebra and an aulonocara if you have not read it in any book stating that fact :?

Can anyone tell me where its written :?

P.S also would it be right to say that if it truly is a cross between zebra and aulonocara wouldn't it have a short nose like a zebra or same body shape .

[madasa]

Pete can I recommend you take a look at this site which explains discus hybridisation:

http://www.gcca.net/fom/discus.htm

Aahhh ... interesting. Thankyou Den.

[/b]

[Fox]

Why doesnt someone email a person who dives in the lake :idea:
Ad Konings comes to mind.

Ask him if they exist in the wild. Simple..

[Aquotix Aquariums]

Even if they did, the ones we have in Australia have been mixed with various other Aulonocara so the variety would be 'tainted'. If they were to occur in the wild (OB variants occur in quite a few species) then this would be an odd one here or there type occurrence, therefore difficult to determine its origin.
In short what we have in Australia is not a distinct species, just a commercially viable addition to most cichlid collections. And because we can import any Aulonocara species into Australia, this variant will not cause us to loose any true species in the long run.

[Kimbo]

Hey guys,

I got in contact with Ad Konings just to clear this one up for everyone

Hi Kim,

the only thing I know about the marbled peacock is that it is a hybrid,
probably between a zebra and Aulonocara stuartgranti. One thing for sure
is that it is not a naturally occurring morph. So for the purists out
there, flush the buggers. For the people who like them please enjoy.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Enjoy your cichlids!
Ad

[cobby]

Yer Mate 8O
i think its clear now for the people that have read this post that there is no doubt that it is a hybrid.

Regards Cobby

[Mr_docfish]

Edtited. Col

P.S also would it be right to say that if it truly is a cross between zebra and aulonocara wouldn't it have a short nose like a zebra or same body shape .

His question was an aim to try and understand the above, as most of us would agree, why is the whole body shape, particularly the head not distorted due to the Mbuna genes?
In the question of requiring books in the search for the written truth, why does the whole legal system have written law, why do 90% of religions have a Bible, Koran or other book, why do we have encyclopedias and why did I have to read through 1000's of pages of scientific articles with references to more scientific articles just to be able to complete a 3 year degree?
In the search for answers we sometimes need to have it written down, with references or names of people who wrote it in order to have us believe it. Some of us, sometimes, need photographic evidence in order to believe.
Also when information is written down, you would assume that the author has done his/her research correctly so it would be considered more than hearsay, such as can be found on the net.


doc

[Mr_docfish]

Yeh cobbs mate, I've still got sense of humour, I'm not all stuffed up

PS you got Britannica? 'spose now it ain't worth a cent, now that we all have 'google' hey? and BTW I'm not very religious and I believe in evolution and science, so I don't think I would believe everything that someone wrote in the Bible... would that make me a hypocrite? :?

doc :wink:

[cobby]

No worries DOC :wink:

[cichlid hunter]

Mr_docfish

I said what I know was the truth, I know books are important.. I was on the PCS committee (actually as the librarian) and I have had cichlids for over 8 years.

I said I wasn't sure what the book was I dunno if its even in one, to be honnest why would someone publish a book with a xbreed in it. Most books I have read have had only pure speices.

I felt in cichlidnuts reply that I making it up because I didnt have proof in a book, but i know that it was a X.

All I was getting at is not everything is in a book.. not that books aren't important.

Cheers Scott