42 replies to this topic

[Kieran]

dose it matter what water conditioner don't the do all the same job?

They do NOT all do the same job. Please do some proper research and see what at least the averages measured for your water are and match your chemicals accordingly. If you want good info on water conditioners PM Aquotix or Mr_docfish and they can point you in the right direction.

the way i see it go to Lake Tanganyika or Lake Malawi you don't see bubbles popping out ... so iam saying it a waste of power

And does your 3' tank have a 50x turnover every hour? Is your tank stocked in the same fish to water ratio as a lake? And as for using power; I'm an energy auditor and I would rather use 50W running an airpump than distress and harm my pets. I don't know about you marek90, but I value my fish highly and I weigh the tiny use of power against the enormous enjoyment I get from keeping fish.
If it really concerns you that much, I can make you a list of 10 things you can do to save 50W elsewhere in your home

[sydad]

You are of course correct. But the surface area of the lake is also a tad more than your 3ft tank Plus you have wind blowing across the surface as well.

A common misconception is that bubbles "put air into water". This is not correct. The main gas exchange between the air and the water happens at the water surface. Bubbles do two things:

1. create a water flow from the bottom so air deprived water from the bottom is brought up
2. break the water surface to aid in gas exchange.

The gas exchange between an actual bubble and the water is negligible, it's the increased exposure of a higher volume of water to the air that's increasing your oxygen in the water.
You also have to ensure that there is enough air on top of the water surface - so if you have lids on your tank then removing them will increase the airflow across the water surface = more oxygen in the water.

The laws of physics are not suspended just because the water/air interface is a bubble. Gaseous interchange still occurs in accordance with those laws, so depending on the number and size of the bubbles, the gas interchange will almost certainly be significant. It's time some of these hoary old chestnuts were put to rest.

Syd.

[Scales]

marek if you take other peoples advise but at the same time argue the point in question do not expect a huge response to your next post. if people give you advise and you then give it time and it still doesnt work then give your argument back but if you think a 3 foot tank without an airstone has any relivance to a huge body of water in regards to oxygenation you are mistaken.

[Warby]

Actually I think the way Marek has debated the points in question here isn't too bad... he hasn't completely dismissed the idea but is debating it in a way which has encouraged more information to be brought to the table about WHY he should be aiming to increase the o2 in his water ....

personally I'm not a huge fan of using air pumps to increase o2, I would rather up the surface disruption with another powerhead aimed somewhat upwards or an extra canister with a spraybar or similar - but that's just because I'm not big on the whole "bubble wall" look

-Dave

[Scales]

fair enough but if the people that have given input on the subject are seemingly trying to help be he keeps rebutting before the results are in seems a bit counter productive.

its a good post with lots of relevant points of view but having had this exact example be right in front if my eyes at a mates house last night (fish gasping in the middle of the 6 foot tank) i did some of the suggestions as his water surface distruption seemed adequate. i added 2 extra powerheads to increase surface disruption, after 2-3 hours no change except the fish were swimming faster against the flow of water. in the end i adding a ventury system to one of his powerheads and removed the rest and within 2 hours the fish were gasping significantly less, and in less time, and was just proof in the pudding in my opinion.

i must add as well that his tank was considerably over stocked, like im guessing mareks is, and makes the lake refferance relivant in the point that if you over stock a lake, ie whats on national geographic when water supplies start to dry up, then there will deffinatly be deaths to follow.

clay

[marek90]

i must say thank you for all your responses and bear in mind that i do consider all your views this is how people learn the fastest through an open topic with all ideas in it. i forgot to tell you i don't have a power head i think they not as good as canister ones i have a eheim 2213 its dose 400 L/H and suitable for tanks up to 250litres and my tank is around 120ltr but i got lots of rocks and caves for them so its reduced to 90ltrs and i will try to upload a picture of my spray bar and this will explain why i don't need a air stone.

btw iam not ditching cheaper brand name filters because i think they are ok too i have a few running in fry tanks

i also have to add that i do consider my fish health for me that's priority for me and probably most people come to think of it in my time of fish keeping of 2yrs i have only lost one fish it was a bristlenose because it got stuck in a hole in driftwood

[Scales]

do you have the spray bar in or out of the water?

if its in the water it would explain your problem, if its out of the water like a constant rain bar then it might be due for a clean cause of the reduced flow rate...

the rating of the filter doesnt have an effect on airation, i recently read (cheers to the pcs newsletter) that lake tanganika is almost at saturation as for as o2 goes, you would need alot of water surface movement in your tank to achieve this

[Ivan Sng]

Marek90, well you initially started this topic because your fishes looked like they were trying hard to breathe after a water change... and the responses from many members seems to indicate that it could be the lack of oxygen/aeration in the tank, but from your last post, you seem to indicate that you believe that your aeration for the tank is sufficient.

If that is indeed the case, then you should be investigating into why the fishes are trying hard to breathe... change in pH after water change, temperature flunctuations through the day, etc.... because your nitrate reading of 40ppm is likely not the cause of such behaviour...

[Codfather]

I think it's hard to ind the problem unless you eliminate some possibilities.
You can't assume that rapid breathing equates to low oxygen in the water. It really means low oxygen in the fish. I'd consider;

1) Treat for gill flukes. I think Levamisole is very safe and beneficial, whether or not the fish have lukes.

2) Watch for signs of protozoan gill parasites. Things like costia that will efect gills usually also show externally on the fish as a cloudiness on the skin.

3) I seem to remember credible members saying that the only neutraliser needed (in Perth) is sodium thiosulphate. I don't know if extra ingredients in your product have any effect on the gills with your fish and your water.

4) Aeration of your source water before adding to your tank may be desirable, and can avoid the need for any neutraliser. If you can't be bothered, at least run the hose for a while to get rid of any dead water in the hose, especially if you can smell sulphur when the hose is first turned on. This may indicate the presence of demons.

5) Salt will probably help with osmoregulation for your fish, but I wouldn't add a variable until the others have been eliminated.

I think an air pump is a good idea, but more for the redundancy in case the Eheim stops.

[marek90]

do you have the spray bar in or out of the water?

i have it half out

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[dazzabozza]

Looks like plenty of aeration in those pics. Are the fish still gasping?

Gill parasites should also be considered.


Daz

[marek90]

i think i found the problem a few days ago i clean the filter from top to bottom and since then i had no problems i noticed that water had trouble getting past the ceramic noddles so i can say heavily clogged people say clean a eheim twice a yr but in my over stocked tank i have to do it every 3 months
ill keep on testing the chemical side every 2 days i don't like this happening when i do a water change every week before this problem i noticed that they breathed a bit harder (always) but 1.5 days later was ok but when i did my last water change i for got my self and was a 3week break and i disliked when they didn't stop breathing after day or so

but i think i solved it but u never know

btw i run around the house with a bucket for a reason
1. when im filling the bucket at full tap psi air bubbles mix in so its air rated
2. i don't like the hose because when i use the bucket and iam filling it up i can smell alot of chlorine evaporating so its a good thing
3.i can control the water temp in winter a little warm about 30 and in winter my tank is at 24 coz of my cold room and 2 buckets at 30 tops it up to 26

[marek90]

Looks like plenty of aeration in those pics. Are the fish still gasping?

Gill parasites should also be considered.


Daz

hmmm Gill parasites hay... well i 1st don't know how to identify it but to answer you no they are not gasping for a few days since i cleaned my eheim

can you see maybe why i rejected the air-stones idea ? lol i always had my sparybar like this or should i say rain bar lol plus i like the sound of rain at the end of a hard day at work and drop ya self on to bed you fall asleep like a baby when i hear that sound bubbles going ploonk ploonk ploonk all night drives me nuts so in my fry tank its on a timer its not a airstone but a air filter the sponge pipe thing

Marek

[angelbaby]

My blue rams seem to die after a water change, they dont like it.
The electric yellow tank dont get many water changes and they are the strongest fish i have.
Make sure your temp is the same!
I've figured this has been my problem.
Doing small changes is soo so much better! even if you have amm or high nitrates etc, doing a small change, leave it a while and do another small change tc, to get it to desired test levels, but not all at once. I have lost a bit of faith in water changes, my fish seem to do better if i leave them alone!

[marek90]

My blue rams seem to die after a water change, they dont like it.

yer i once tested that if you do a bucket a day not once a week its better for fish and chemical side but i still wouldn't think that they die i would test the water before and after water change

Marek

[Kieran]

angelbaby if you grab a couple of the 25L water storage cubes from BCF in Bunbury you can fill them up and let them sit for 48hrs and the chlorine will evaporate out, and the ph of the water will settle out (you'll find this changes in the first 24hrs -- fill a glass with water and try it!) plus the cubes stack well in a cupboard when not in use

[angelbaby]

thanks Kieran,
It may evaporate the chlorine but not chloramines, or ammonia (or other way around).
It comes out of the tap at 7.4ph, 115 gh. will test the water in the morning to see what it is after sitting
Sure is an improvement to store the water first though, water temp being my main concern. that seems to bother my fish the most when I did it from the hose.
when I have done it from the hose though, I trickle the water in over an hour so it is not too much shock.adding a drop of prime as I go.
I just rigged up a container with a small pump, so I can pump the water from the containers into the tank after its been sitting.

I did recently read that gold rams do not do well with new water...certainly seems that way with my past experiences...then again I bought the rams with damn white spot!

I started to wonder if the male killed them off so he could have the 2 females to himself!

Marek,
Do your fish rub against plants?
I have used fenbenzadole over the last week mixed in brine shrimp, and all the fish that seemed off colour have come good, appetites back and I'm very happy with the results, I only suspected worms, didnt see any.
treated with prazi quantel first day on 2 angels that i was sure I would lose.
they are going great now. still treating with the fenbendazole food
I had lost 8 angels after adding neons to the tank, lost 9 of them, one survived.
I couldnt just sit there and let them die while wondering what the disease was, so it was prazi on medic tank first day, then wc, then prazi again, then wc, then after 24 hours wc, then fenbendazole in food. i know you should id the disease before treating but I had already lost so many fish, I was willing to take the chance, and it worked.
As a secondary bonus, i had hydra show up in the tank just before, and the fenben got rid of them too

[Kieran]

I've been looking into the chloramines because my folks have just moved to Northam so their water is quite a bit different to mine. For my brother's tank there I use API products or Prime if I have to (I find it's a bit harsh). I still ideally would leave it to sit and then you can also aerate the water and heat it to roughly the same temperature as your tank to minimise any chances of osmotic shock when you do the actual water change.

Back when I was lugging containers and buckets around (I use a pump now) I found those cubes really handy because they have lids! No spillage

[the pulpican man]

iam saying it a waste of power

if your so worried about power, rather than the health of your fish, buy goldfish or dont keep fish, aquariums may be a power consumer but they are to be enjoyed also and you dont get enjoyment with unhealthy fish... with water changes do a quarter/third every 1-2 weeks, and i'd also buy and internal filter cause the eheim won't do a proper job of picking up waste, canister filters are mainly there for bio filtration and shouldn't be cleaned out as often as 3 months as you wipe out a great deal of bacteria colonies, and internal will just clear up the crap and then the water will be polished by the canister filter removing ammonia, nitrites etc.

[marek90]

i said a waste of power coz i don't think i need a useless air stone i got a eheim that sucks from the bottom and and sprays it above water leavel and i don't think i need a internal filter coz i use a gravel filter when i take out water i take out 30ltrs each week 1st bucktet is all brown poo water and 2nd 3rd clear water
before i have eheim i had a internal one and i must say it disappointed me (my eheim which can filter 3 times as much water what i have now)