18 replies to this topic

[snakebite729]

Hi guys,
I have a 5x2x2 that has been running for about 3 years, but recently sold all the fish. I've kept the filters running, but without any fish continuing to provide ammonia, how long will it remain OK for fish? I plan on introducing new fish eventually, but it may not be for a month or two.
Thanks

[sandgroper]

Add some Bristlenose and or Mystery snails, they will keep things ticking along and clean the tank up as well.

[malawiman85]

Or just chuck some fish food in there

[snakebite729]

Thanks guys, will throw a bit of food in I think. Could I also just stir up the substrate? There's plenty of waste in there still. Would that help at all?

[Buccal]

No, while you have time, take advantage and clean all that old waiste out of substrate. (Basically a nitrate generator).
As said, two bristle noses, why wouldn't you ???
They require stuff all maintenance and if you don't feed them they'll eat what's growing around in there algae wise.
But just buy a little bag of algae disks and put one or two in each week.

Get jiggy with your substrate and clean it out, then a 40% water change while the water is all manked up. chuck two Bn's in, and it's all set on cruise standby.

Edited by Buccal, 20 January 2016 - 05:58 PM.

[Buccal]

Thanks guys, will throw a bit of food in I think. Could I also just stir up the substrate? There's plenty of waste in there still. Would that help at all?

Just helping to clear up your understanding,,,,,,,, it doesn't matter wether waiste is in your tank, gravel or filter, it all generates ammonia no matter where it's situated.
The ammonia in your water becomes part of your waters chemistry.
The beneficial bacteria are living in your filters and small amounts are living in gravel and most surface areas.
These beneficial bacteria convert the ammonia into nitrites then further into nitrates, so fundamentally the beneficial bacteria is altering your water chemistry to a much safer (less toxic) state.

[bigjohnnofish]

beneficial bacteria dont die off because there is no longer an ammonia source... as long as the water is still oxygenated and flowing through your filtration the beneficial bacterial will become dormant and when an ammonia source is reintroduced the beneficial bacteria will kick back into life and start consuming ammonia/nitrite 

it is documented somewhere exactly how long bacteria will approx survive for without ammonia source but from memory its close to 12 months....

 

so dont be wasting food chucking it into an empty tank lol  

[Buccal]

Yes agreed.
But I would have to say with a diminished ammonia source the beneficial bacteria (bb), don't die out, and if they did it would mean the tank would be back to square one the first day you ever put water in it.
Buuuut parts or percentages of the bb population will die out leaving small populations in existence, these small populations starved of ammonia further will send them into a non active dormant state.
Once under load again when tank is restocked, they very fast repopulate.
But it's nice to keep them out of dormancy and at least have a fraction of the nitrogen cycle ticking over.
This way when you restart again, you can start a touch faster,,, throwing food in is purely for a faster trigger start to actually bring a bb colony from absolute nothing into existence (the beginning).

[Delapool]

I've seen similar articles of the bacteria surviving for months and practically have restarted my sisters tank after it was empty for several months with no issues. She has done that as well. <br /><br />Buuut - stocking did start off small and I've wondered if the bacteria are quick or slow to get going again. <br /><br />My idle suspicion is a fully stocked tank my be a bit of stress but I'd be interested how this one goes. <br /><br /><br />Craig.

[Buccal]

There are a view variables which would see different results from one situation to the next.
Like, comparing two scenarios that are the same, both no fish for 8 months and ready to restart, but one tank is 23-24'c with low KH/GH having neutral water,,,,, and other tank is 27-28'c with high KH/GH and having a high PH of 8.2-9.
The second tank with 27-28'c would support much faster bb repopulation.

Both tanks in the comparison test would need to have the same feeding, stocking and water changing frequency along the way.

Edited by Buccal, 22 January 2016 - 02:05 AM.

[bigjohnnofish]

wont need to repopulate BB... they dont die off - someone we both know buccal can tell you this after leaving their sump running and replacing racks and tanks over a period of time and then once new stuff was in and connected , a large volume of ammonia was added expecting to still have a high reading next morning but was zero... bigger load of ammonia was dumped in and again zero following day.... tanks were fish loaded not long after with no issues....

but there is a time frame when BB do die off.... google will help us there

[Buccal]

Bb multiply very fast on the increase from a already existing population.
It depends on how the individual is actually determining the words used here.

When you say Johnno, won't need to re-populate... They don't die off...... Are you thinking I'm saying they die off out existence completely and need to start the process again starting from zero ??????????????
Because not once I've ever said this.

When I mentioned re-populate,,, I outlined my precise description that the repopulating part is the repopulation of the percentage out of the total population that was lost.
So,,,,, to begin we had 100% population, then the tanks stock removed, and after 8 months maybe 40% remain.
After restocking, the term I used repopulation is the come back of the lost 60%.
And not repopulate meaning from 0% back to 100%.
You did mention they do die of after maybe after 12 months or more,,,,, but you can't tell me that 100% will survive then once the life expectancy deadline is up, within minutes 100% will die of all together in a flash, because starvation doesn't work like that, and both Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter have different needs but both work together.

So are you saying that 100% will always remain but stay dormant then will spark back up once their food source returns ?????
Because it's not as black and white as that, because Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter Don't react the same ways as each other in the topics circumstances, one fairs better than the other, but I don't want to explain this or go cut n paisting super long scientific passages.
As we know, both these bacterias work together to perform mother natures task.
Having at least a little food source for the bb, will also keep both bacteria types in the needed balance numbers to pic up and go from where they left off, for a smoother, faster reboot.

Edited by Buccal, 22 January 2016 - 02:56 AM.

[malawiman85]

So... umm the filter will be fine then? ;-)
Its a little bit sciency.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1913382/

http://www.ncbi.nlm....cles/PMC168521/

Check out some of the 'similar articles' on the linked pages too.

Edited by malawiman85, 22 January 2016 - 07:39 AM.

[Buccal]

It's a bit more extra research than just starvation alone, it's basically testing all predicaments.
But it does state a lot 'recovery',,,, it's research on bb colonization, is it the exact species that serve for us in our tanks ?.
Recovery means colonization rebuilding, so some are dying in the process with most surviving then rejuvenating back to full populous.
No word of dormancy which is a extended rejuvenation sleep.
On page 4 it sort of implies that the bacteria go into a half dead mode as well as a percentage dying off, and needs to heal back up to function again following populous multiplication.
So maybe longer over a year it does start to actually go past point of no return and die of.
Page 2 did state 85% retained viability after ten weeks,,,, so 15% did die. Yes/no.

Regardless of how it really is,,, they are amazing survivors, after all they have to be,,, other wise the world would be neck deep in
s h i t and dead bodies and everything else that needs to rot away fast into nothing with its energy returning back into the earth.

Years of learning the terminology is needed to really understand these types of articles,,, trying to depict these studies is just time spending on depiction from the words used. Lol.

Edited by Buccal, 22 January 2016 - 05:27 PM.

[bigjohnnofish]

of course your going to get some bb dying.... as you know a colony of bb doing its thing in a tank full of fish experiences bb deaths just the reproduction rate equals or betters the rate of deaths...  

 

as for recolonization being quicker thats all about bb numbers doubling every 15 hours in ideal conditions... 

 

you know the old 1 - 2 - 4 - 8 - 16 - 32 - 64 - 128 - 256 - 512 - 1024 - 2048 - 4096 - 8192 - 16384 - 32768 and so on....... so if you have dropped back to 50% of your original bb numbers then it takes merely 15 hours to double their numbers.... 

 

but we both knew that and just wanted to explain this a bit more for others reading this and wanting to understand a bit more

[Buccal]

Terminology or even descriptive words,,, sometimes people view them in different ways.
Someone may say bacteria dying off,, some people reading would think complete bacteria wipe out,, some would think individual or parts of the total dying.
Someone may say repopulation,, some people would think they all died and need to grow again,, some would think a population getting bigger from a existing smaller size.
Repopulation in this case has identical meaning to recovery....... But again could mean from zero, or increase from existing smaller size.

This is why you all see my posts so god damn long lol.
Trying to make sure imprint on everyone's brain is same to one another.

[sandgroper]

Impossible.

[Buccal]

Yeah I know lol,,, but I do try to get it closer to everyone being on even keel.

[snakebite729]

Thanks heaps guys. So basically it will be fine for a few weeks with nothing in it. Awesome!