58 replies to this topic

[Kleinz]

Thank you Mark, for that equivocation.

 

IMHO, if you are going to keep eartheaters, a big part of it is to see them diligently sifting through the tank. If you don't want them eating earth, then why get eartheaters? Why not some fish better suited to a bare bottom tank? They are what they are.

 

Keeping eartheaters sans earth is reducing them to battery hens. Battery hens are far less interesting to watch than chickens doing their thing. Sure, they will still lay eggs, but that is not the whole of being a chicken.

 

It reminds me of a post on here a few months back asking if there is any way to stop wood eating plecos eating wood.

[Buccal]

I don't think those plecos on that thread were actually wood eaters anyway.

I make choices that suits demand.
You could say I'm a person for the people

And yes battery hens, if looked at that way,, I often speak the term myself.
Don't forget the chickens are there for the eggs.
The tapajos in your tank are possibly the ones I generated

Though on a different tangent, I could have spoken instead about my school of six Tapajos in my 2500 liter display in a sea of substrate sifting all day long.

Some humans live in Somalia sucking the organs out of dead rats.
Some humans dine in restaurants eating caviar and crayfish.

But not all is doom and gloom,,, they will occupy soon one half of a ten foot, just one tank out of another 28 at 10 and 11 ft soon to double my capacity of H2O to go.

Edited by Buccal, 15 October 2013 - 09:34 PM.

[Ronny]

Ronny's and Poncho's advice will be more purist, being the advice will be based on the set up to suit and bring out the natural behavior to fully admire the specie.
There's a difference when asking a question.
Being,,,, what will suffice to keep healthy and happy.
Or, what are the full requirements.

I have two full size pairs in just under a four foot tank that's 450mm wide and 340mm high.
A terra cotta dish a each end of tank with a rock in between.
Glass bottom,, no substrate.
They breed, race up for food and follow me walking past.
Both pairs respect one another when it's their turn to breed.

I'm doing it, but it's not something I go recommending.
Comes down to how far you want go.
Worth trial and erroring.
What's unfair to the fish and what's not ???? It's interpretated differently between one aquarist to another.

 

 

Good point, it really depends on what you want from the fish.  Wether or not you want to admire the fish in all its glory, watching it's natural behaviours or if you just want to put it in a breeding tank and sell fry (not that there's anything wrong with that)

 

I often find putting the fish in ideal conditions they tend to look better than those that are in sufficient conditions.

For example, my Bolivians are all doing well in my discus tank which is kept at a PH of 6.4-6.6. I use them as an indicator of my PH.

I find when the PH rises and gets closer to neutral, their colours dull down untill the PH get closer to 6.5 again.

They were a great tool while cycling my tank and getting the PH right lol.

 

In terms of the tank size, it is sufficient for a small group of geos or discus, but I wouldn't say big enough for both.

 

My breeding group of 12 G. Steindachneri were housed in a 4x1.5x15 and they did very well.

 

Having worked in the retail side of the hobby, what I do and what I reccommend are two different things sometimes

[Buccal]

An open dynamical mind to way of thinking and keeping fish applications.
I like it.

Selective achievements require different scenarios.

[Poncho]

Buccal I think you need some professional therapy mate - wtf does that even mean?

 

But Jules he is right - you can keep geo's without substrate - but why would you want to?

[Anka]

I'm getting so excited about the earth eaters. Based on replies I've decided not to get discus at well.

[Buccal]

Buccal I think you need some professional therapy mate - wtf does that even mean?
 
But Jules he is right - you can keep geo's without substrate - but why would you want to?

You have to read slowly and think hard, be patient for the wisdom to enlighten you

Usual reasons for bare bottom is for sanitary reasons.
Keeping Geos with other species, may call for no substrate because some species do a lot of fouling especially in many TB situations.
Another is,,,, when keeping a fair whack of tanks,,, bare bottoms are undoubtably time/life savers.

With no substrate less water flow is needed to for a gentle circulation to still be effective in keeping debri of bottom and having no dead spot collection points, (a smooth unobstructed flow over the glass surface).

These are usually reasons for bare bottom apart from slimline presentation of the fish (to be all about showing the fish).

Bare bottom doesn't seem to effect geo breeding, but I take fresh wriggles and nurture.
There could be complications the natural way as they like having a series of pits they like to transfer fry from one to the next.

Sandsifters (tangs) can breed without substrate, but I have found two or males with no substrate and no pit to build creates to much confusion and doesn't go so well.

With your earth eaters,,,, just don't forget to use full spectrum lighting that allows all colors to shine.
There are a lot of intricate colors in Geos that are missed with incorrect lighting.
Im a fan of the T8 power glo. In the pink/purple box.

[Poncho]

Oh Buccal, the only wisdom to be gained from your posts is that which results in an understanding that it is wiser not to have read your drivel in the first place. Unfortunately it is too late for me, I’ve read some of your posts and am poorer for having done so.

 

But seriously, why do you feel it necessary to answer questions asked of someone else and speak on their behalf without invitation? I don’t want or need to hear your endless and limited fishkeeping philosophies everytime I ask someone else a basic question. In fact in this thread you go one step further and even assume to relate what Ronny’s and my answer to a question would be. Does your audacity have no bounds? Are you that desperate for validation that you have to burden every thread on this forum with constant and long-winded drivel? Don’t get me wrong – I have no problem with you having input on this forum and some of it is actually helpful. But you go over the top to the extent where people who have a lot more knowledge and experience to contribute cannot be bothered, lest they get dragged into a debate where you bombard them with long-winded boasts of mediocre “achievements” or nonsensical conclusions, that they just don’t have the energy for.

 

Jules in all seriousness, why would you want to keep eartheaters in that non-ideal situation? For breeding, dithers, growing them up from fry to adults to sell at a marginally higher price? All valid reasons I guess. But you strike me as someone genuinely interested about fish and I’m assuming the question is asked because you’re interested in eartheaters and want to learn more about them through experience in keeping them and/or displaying some of these magnificent fish in your tanks for you and others to enjoy.

 

If the latter is the case, then for what it is worth, I strongly recommend doing it properly – which means having a sandy substrate available to them. The eartheater group is broad and some species are much more adaptable than others but for the main part, keeping eartheaters in a bare bottom tank is more than likely going to result in a group of stressed out fish, more vulnerable to disease  and stifled in their ability to follow instinct. Hence, not able to teach you anything substantial about their behaviours or nature, nor ever reach their true potential as a display fish. So my question is serious – whether substrate is necessary or not largely depends on the motivation for keeping these fish. If you are determined to go ahead with no substrate, of the commonly available types I would recommend something like steindachneri or brasiliensis and would not recommend Satanoperca spp. or tapajos, surinamensis/brachybranchus, rio brancos or CV’s. The first two are very adaptable, the others are a lot more dependant on their environment, although they are still quite hardy fish.

 

All the other crap about lighting, sanitation, water flow over the top of substrate and avoiding dead spots in the tank, these really only have relevance if you intend on keeping the fish in inappropriate conditions in the first place i.e. band-aid solutions to get away with or compensate for an underlying issue.

[MrLeifBeaver]

I'm getting so excited about the earth eaters. Based on replies I've decided not to get discus at well.

 

Boooooo!

[Ronny]

 
Boooooo!

 
 
Having kept some beautiful geos and domestic discus and currently having wild discus, I'd have to say, I'd take my Alpha male Geophagus C/V any day

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Edited by Ronny, 17 October 2013 - 12:28 PM.

[Ronny]

Having said that, the ultimate would be Geophagus C/V with Wild DIscus in a big ass tank! lol.

[Anka]

Ronny that is a stunning fish! What is the full name of the species?

How large do they get? Will they be ok in my tank?

 

Edit: changed question mark to an exclamation mark

[Buccal]

Oh Buccal, the only wisdom to be gained from your posts is that which results in an understanding that it is wiser not to have read your drivel in the first place. Unfortunately it is too late for me, I’ve read some of your posts and am poorer for having done so.
 
But seriously, why do you feel it necessary to answer questions asked of someone else and speak on their behalf without invitation? I don’t want or need to hear your endless and limited fishkeeping philosophies everytime I ask someone else a basic question. In fact in this thread you go one step further and even assume to relate what Ronny’s and my answer to a question would be. Does your audacity have no bounds? Are you that desperate for validation that you have to burden every thread on this forum with constant and long-winded drivel? Don’t get me wrong – I have no problem with you having input on this forum and some of it is actually helpful. But you go over the top to the extent where people who have a lot more knowledge and experience to contribute cannot be bothered, lest they get dragged into a debate where you bombard them with long-winded boasts of mediocre “achievements” or nonsensical conclusions, that they just don’t have the energy for.
 
Jules in all seriousness, why would you want to keep eartheaters in that non-ideal situation? For breeding, dithers, growing them up from fry to adults to sell at a marginally higher price? All valid reasons I guess. But you strike me as someone genuinely interested about fish and I’m assuming the question is asked because you’re interested in eartheaters and want to learn more about them through experience in keeping them and/or displaying some of these magnificent fish in your tanks for you and others to enjoy.
 
If the latter is the case, then for what it is worth, I strongly recommend doing it properly – which means having a sandy substrate available to them. The eartheater group is broad and some species are much more adaptable than others but for the main part, keeping eartheaters in a bare bottom tank is more than likely going to result in a group of stressed out fish, more vulnerable to disease  and stifled in their ability to follow instinct. Hence, not able to teach you anything substantial about their behaviours or nature, nor ever reach their true potential as a display fish. So my question is serious – whether substrate is necessary or not largely depends on the motivation for keeping these fish. If you are determined to go ahead with no substrate, of the commonly available types I would recommend something like steindachneri or brasiliensis and would not recommend Satanoperca spp. or tapajos, surinamensis/brachybranchus, rio brancos or CV’s. The first two are very adaptable, the others are a lot more dependant on their environment, although they are still quite hardy fish.
 
All the other crap about lighting, sanitation, water flow over the top of substrate and avoiding dead spots in the tank, these really only have relevance if you intend on keeping the fish in inappropriate conditions in the first place i.e. band-aid solutions to get away with or compensate for an underlying issue.

Thanks Poncho,,, it looks like that wraps it all up for me then,,,,, from the time I've joined the forum till now has been good,,,,, thanks to all for the sharing.

[Ronny]

Ronny that is a stunning fish? What is the full name of the species?
How large do they get? Will they be ok in my tank?

That's my old Geophagus Columbian/Venezuelan. They were formerly known as Abalios or Aripuana.
They get quite large roughly 20-25cm. So would need more than a 4 foot.
I had 12 with some other fish in a 9x2 and felt that was the smallest they could go in without being too small.

[Anka]

[Ronny]

What about Mikrogeophagus altispinosa or ramirezi?
If given ideal conditions they colour up beautifully.

[Jules]

jus tmy next tank is going to be bare bottom for ease of cleaning etc.

and a 7x3 might need more then a few rays to occupy the remainder of the water column.

Maybe ill just chuck my bass in there then.

[wickkyjr]

The bloke in sydney selling fry i think, there not your old ones ronny?

The old boy just got 24 of them to grow up. Hopefully they will turn out nice.

Was going to get 4 sent over for my 4x3x2 but decided against it.

4x2x2 would be the smallest id go for the normal size geos.

Smaller ones ( orange heads, red humps) you could get away with.

 

We got some geos that had never has sand before, and the poor bastards looked lost. Took them a couple of months to figure it out.

[Poncho]

Ease of cleaning? Well unless you need the bottom spotless 100% of the time, Sandsifters will do it all for you.

can't get any easier than that

[Ronny]

The bloke in sydney selling fry i think, there not your old ones ronny?

The old boy just got 24 of them to grow up. Hopefully they will turn out nice.

Was going to get 4 sent over for my 4x3x2 but decided against it.

4x2x2 would be the smallest id go for the normal size geos.

Smaller ones ( orange heads, red humps) you could get away with.

 

We got some geos that had never has sand before, and the poor bastards looked lost. Took them a couple of months to figure it out.

 

No idea where they came from, I moved my lot onto Poncho and not sure where they went after that?

 

I saw there was a guy selling them, asked for pics and never got any.

 

jus tmy next tank is going to be bare bottom for ease of cleaning etc.

and a 7x3 might need more then a few rays to occupy the remainder of the water column.

Maybe ill just chuck my bass in there then.

 

What about discus Jules?

Also, haven't forgot to keep an eye out for you for some interesting TB's