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#21 Kleinz

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 05:34 PM

No. I do not believe in execution for drug offenses, if at all. I have known drug users and I have seen some die of them. That does not alter my opinion.

 

I think that what they did is a bit irrelevant to the outcome, though.

 

This issue was milked for the political winner that it was by the Australian and Indonesian governments both. It was the gift that kept on giving.  They both managed this well and got decent bumps in the approval polls out of it. That the outcome was execution was always going to be the case and I doubt that either lost sleep over that part.

 

Abbott and Bishop got to look important and presidential making a fuss about someone they did not give a rat's arse over and it helped distract from the series of disasters and incompetence at home. It's as good a distraction as playing the terrorist card and sending troops/planes to the middle east.

 

A newly minted Widodo got to increase his support by firmly resisting pressure from rich countries who are seen over there as patronising and bullying. The theatre of their transfer to the prison island said it all. Four naval ships. Armoured vehicles. Commandos. For what?  In case someone tried something? Please.  That was just an exercise in Indonesian national pride. It will have played very well on TV. As good as the ANZAC crap we have been rehashing endlessly for the last weeks.

 

I think the Federal Police have some responsibility here, as they shopped those guys. I would like to know whose decision that was. I would like to know what they or the Australian government got in return. I am certain they got something.

 

I'd really like to know why noone further up the supply chain was caught or charged. Surely this would have been a golden opportunity to do something other than stop a few bottom level mules and enforcer thugs. No?

 

 

Lastly, given the amount of consular assistance and pressure the Australian government has expended on these guys, who are (or perhaps were) essentially scum and thugs, why do they not exert similar pressure to try and help guys like Julian Assange, who performed some serious public service to us all, and is not yet charged with a crime. He has languished a prisoner  in a small room in London for some years now and must live with the distinct likelihood that he will end up in an American prison for decades at the least and might well be subject to torture by that regime, should he get there.

 

I want to know why they aren't helping that guy.



#22 werdna

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 07:39 PM

The issue has nothing to do with your opinion re death penalty.

Does the media complain this much whenever any convicted drug trafficker is killed somewhere in the world?

What makes these two any different by being Australian? They still broke a law in a foreign country and that country prosecutes as per their laws. Not ours.

 

The fact is that the Australian government has no right to tell the Indonesian government how their legal system should work.

Just like the Indonesian government has no right to tell us how the Australian legal system should operate.

 

The proper thing to do is make an official request through the UN, of which both countries are members.

Not act the way they have.



#23 Kleinz

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 07:49 PM

I think you are operating on a faulty assumption: The desired outcome.

 

If they wanted the guys home, then maybe the UN would be the go.

 

If they were simply determined to posture and prance and  fly the flag and dog whistle like mad while the gears moved towards the inevitable then try and reap a political reward, then they would behave much as they just did.

 

The rest is all theatre. All the cajoling. All the finger wagging. All the finger pointing. Theatre.  I expect both governments got to hide some real dirt between the smokescreen of Chan/Sukamaran. As they do.

 

Had nothing to do with what was right or correct or fair.

 

Executions by country. Indo is not in the top 20



#24 Westie

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 09:06 PM

If you asked me a month ago, I probably would have said YES
Today, I say NO.

This was on my mind quite a bit, especially so as they were executed while I was in Bali (flew home tonight).
Andrew Chan and Mayan Sukamaran (excuse my spelling) were a hot topic from the Blue Bird taxi drivers every time I hopped in a cab and they said "are you Aussie?"

I found it interesting that most Balinese are Hindu, and they are against the death penalty, as they believe in Karma. I am against drugs, but I am also against the death penalty. Why not keep them in jail to continue helping others since they were now apparently rehabilitated?
I saw something really sad today as well. An Indonesian military plane landed at the airport, and I watched the soldiers unload some coffins and put them in the back of 3 army trucks. That really got me thinking while I was waiting to board the plane home.
Oh, and for the record, drugs have destroyed my family.

#25 bigjohnnofish

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Posted 01 May 2015 - 03:45 AM

thanks for the replies..... 

 

i think its pretty clear cut myself.... 

 

indonesia+drugs.JPG

 

i wonder if they missed this sign on their previous 7-8 trips carrying drugs to australia.....

 

these two guys were close to the top of their game despite their age... they even organised drug shipments while behind bars in jail.... 

i feel for their families - but they should have been executed 9 years ago.... 

they were quite a large syndicate....

 

as someone else brought up... eliminating drug dealers doesnt solve the problem as more just pop up... its a 2 way street and without users or drug dealers than neither would survive - think about it...... drugs not available - cant take em....and -> no-one wants drugs - dealers go broke and find something else to do..... cant cut one down and praise the other... but eliminate one and the other disappears...

 

at the end of the day if i saw that sign going to another country i sure as hell would take notice... 



#26 Terry

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Posted 01 May 2015 - 07:16 AM

Yes

#27 shayne

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Posted 01 May 2015 - 08:27 AM

Cant be denied that indonesia had the legal right, but no. Prohibition is a failed policy worldwide. The negative effects op stated in the original emotionally charged question are the result of prohibition, no ifs or buts. Our "sophisticated,lol" society still needs a whipping boy and with race and religion of the allowable list, alternative drug users are it . I do hope most you take the time to read the 2 opinion pieces in todays west



#28 Tarpon

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Posted 01 May 2015 - 08:34 AM

I'm sure however that the executions have made other potential drug smugglers strongly consider their future actions

THAT is a positive



#29 Peckoltia

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Posted 01 May 2015 - 09:01 AM

Indonesia has been executing people since 1973 - it doesn't appear to have made any notable difference to the drug trade and use in Indonesia. What makes the latest round of killings any different? 



#30 Tarpon

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Posted 01 May 2015 - 10:01 AM

Good question and its also good that PCS can have a thread with sensible comments

I don't know if there is much research on deterrents but I wonder how worse the problem would be without such severe penalties

I dunno but I see a speed camera I slow down as does everyone else, doesn't affect the road toll or does it?



#31 Voodoo

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Posted 01 May 2015 - 10:27 AM

i haven't done much research but i remember that Portugal has decriminalised all drugs (again i only have a vague recollection of an article i read a while ago). seem to remember that crime and overdoses drastically reduced



#32 shayne

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Posted 01 May 2015 - 10:37 AM

Or maybe how much less the problem would be with an end to prohibition?  Quality control,affordability, less demonisation and forcing into subcultures of vulnerable people, major blow to organised crime and corruption and with less scare mongering and some realism a chance at education. Speed is a special [horrible] case but as a pendulum swings so has the speed problem, we had all these headlines in the 80s and before my memory the 60s, it will swing again. Easing up on pot and having realistic impairment based drug testing in the workplace and on the roads would accelerate this swing. { sorry if im going of topic :unsure: }

i haven't done much research but i remember that Portugal has decriminalised all drugs (again i only have a vague recollection of an article i read a while ago). seem to remember that crime and overdoses drastically reduced

 Not fully familiar but someone will try to cut you down :)  i think crime was down but deaths have risen, however lots of people choose to ignore the kill rate of alcohol,tobacco and regular pharmaceutical drugs or to discuss that some people may choose to euthanise/suicide and so skew the figures.

#33 Voodoo

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Posted 01 May 2015 - 10:52 AM

there will always be arguments for and against - chris rock has a bit about how you will never stop people wanting to get high so why not regulate it and educate people better and let them make the decision for themselves



#34 sandgroper

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Posted 01 May 2015 - 11:04 AM

People that deal with and take hard drugs have a death wish anyway, so i say let the Indonesian Government run the Grant A Wish Foundation.



#35 Tarpon

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Posted 01 May 2015 - 11:12 AM

Good to see some controversy and interest on the PCS again !



#36 Shane-o88

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Posted 01 May 2015 - 11:52 AM

Yay!! I mean yes. Finally.

#37 bigjohnnofish

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Posted 02 May 2015 - 01:36 AM

Good to see some controversy and interest on the PCS again !

 

thank you :)

 

what do people think about this bali boycott and the return boycott australia from the indonesian people.... 

 

if i was tony abbot i would back off and let them be... gradually reduce the current 650 million we give the indonesians in aid... and tell them you are free to make up the difference with tourism in bali :) so they need to look after aussie tourists better to keep their income coming in... or lose it...  i see it as win / win... 

i wouldnt have an issue with abbot gifting indonesia $650 million a year if australia was totally out of debt... but we arent... australian debt is increasing at an alarming rate...

 

OMG look at this abbot is really making a dick out of himself

 

http://www.theaustra...e-1227330733291



#38 malawiman85

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Posted 02 May 2015 - 05:17 AM

You know how when we cant find a decent national rugby or cricket coach we go and poach one from another country? Well I think its about time we found ourselves a PM.
The locally sourced ones havent been much chop and this jackass takes the cake.

#39 werdna

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Posted 02 May 2015 - 07:54 AM

Those who should have the top job don't want it.

Those who want to get the top job shouldn't be there.



#40 silverscreen

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Posted 02 May 2015 - 09:50 AM

i am not a religous man but i beleive no one has the right to play god...no one has the right to take another persons life.






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