me does have a point about the oscars, i think the lfs markups are stupid. the fact that a mail order company can cut the costs so dramatically (sure they dont have the overheads that fish shops do, they do however have warehouses which wouldnt be much smaller than a fish showroom, and they do have staff still).
I would definitely pay a little bit more to support my favorite aquarium dealer, but im talking like around 20 bucks more. Surely if they just dropped their prices to a reasonable markup (hey we all know they are there to make money), people would buy more from them ? either that or improve the quality of the stock. perhaps they do need to look at who they get their fish from. I would be more than happy to pay their regular 100% markup if the fish were top quality, but the fish in perth seem to be so average
PCS & Stuart M. Grant - Cichlid Preservation Fund - Details here
Breeding
Started by Pedigree, Oct 11 2002 10:03 PM
31 replies to this topic
#22
mtchye
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- Validating Joined: 07-September 02
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Location: Willetton
Posted 14 October 2002 - 02:51 AM
Hi guys,
RE the point about the oscars.. I dont think that its the cost per individual fish species that counts. A LFS has to make money as a whole. It will have to sell the fish at a price that the market will bear, and nobody will pay $70 for an oscar. I agree, food and water changes may not make up a huge proportion of costs, that is exactly why a fish like an oscar eating more and requiring more water changes would not cost much more. It is the total cost of keeping a store that counts. Some fish will make more money for the store than others, and you must remember that they would sell much less hongi than electric yellows. Plus, you need to take into account losses which are a significant cost.
Keeping a warehouse is significantly different to running a LFS. Rent may or may not be the same (a warehouse does not have to be strategically situated) but the number of staff required will be less than a LFS - ppl need to serve customers, clean the tanks, etc etc In addition, the online place does not have to worry about livestock dying in their tanks.
RE quality stock: this is symptomatic of general fishkeeping attitudes. How many ppl do you know that are willing to pay more money for better quality fish. Try selling your good quality electric yellows here for say $9 and you will see. Practically no one. So each LFS will do best economically if they can offer the cheapest electric yellows - as long as they are not white, the average novice will buy them instead of the $20 bright ones at the other store. People always want to pay less to get more, its a fact of life.
Just look at the last auction. There was a guy there who got like $2 a fish for extremely nice young yellows. Now there is a benchmark (i.e. you can get yellows for $2) in the future ppl will be very reluctant to pay more for them, regardless of quality.
One example are the german import leleupis. Many stores got them in about a year back.. Many still have most of them, and i've seen quite a few die in the tanks. No one wants to buy them because you can get the greyish yellow ones in the tank or LFS next door for $10. Do you think we will be able to sell our good quality leleupis for $15 or even $10? I'd bet we wouldnt even be able to sell one. So they are selling for $5 which is about half retail or slightly less, and this is the price that people are willing to pay.
There are a few ppl who do value quality, but they are few and far between. You certainly couldnt make a living out of them.
I'm not trying to start an argument. Just letting you guys know that there are always two sides to each story, and there should be careful consideration of both sides before posting your opinions. I'm not entirely pro-LFS, but I do understand their situation.
As for good quality fish, i dont believe that any of us breeders will be able to sell many good quality fish at a significantly higher price than what is normal for that species in the market at the time. The point is that people pay more and go to greater effort to produce good quality, but still get the same returns as if they continued inbreeding the cheapest fish they can get. How many people do you think are willing to do that? Well, quite a few actually, but far more will do just the opposite..
So what are YOU guys doing to improve the fish locally?
RE the point about the oscars.. I dont think that its the cost per individual fish species that counts. A LFS has to make money as a whole. It will have to sell the fish at a price that the market will bear, and nobody will pay $70 for an oscar. I agree, food and water changes may not make up a huge proportion of costs, that is exactly why a fish like an oscar eating more and requiring more water changes would not cost much more. It is the total cost of keeping a store that counts. Some fish will make more money for the store than others, and you must remember that they would sell much less hongi than electric yellows. Plus, you need to take into account losses which are a significant cost.
Keeping a warehouse is significantly different to running a LFS. Rent may or may not be the same (a warehouse does not have to be strategically situated) but the number of staff required will be less than a LFS - ppl need to serve customers, clean the tanks, etc etc In addition, the online place does not have to worry about livestock dying in their tanks.
RE quality stock: this is symptomatic of general fishkeeping attitudes. How many ppl do you know that are willing to pay more money for better quality fish. Try selling your good quality electric yellows here for say $9 and you will see. Practically no one. So each LFS will do best economically if they can offer the cheapest electric yellows - as long as they are not white, the average novice will buy them instead of the $20 bright ones at the other store. People always want to pay less to get more, its a fact of life.
Just look at the last auction. There was a guy there who got like $2 a fish for extremely nice young yellows. Now there is a benchmark (i.e. you can get yellows for $2) in the future ppl will be very reluctant to pay more for them, regardless of quality.
One example are the german import leleupis. Many stores got them in about a year back.. Many still have most of them, and i've seen quite a few die in the tanks. No one wants to buy them because you can get the greyish yellow ones in the tank or LFS next door for $10. Do you think we will be able to sell our good quality leleupis for $15 or even $10? I'd bet we wouldnt even be able to sell one. So they are selling for $5 which is about half retail or slightly less, and this is the price that people are willing to pay.
There are a few ppl who do value quality, but they are few and far between. You certainly couldnt make a living out of them.
I'm not trying to start an argument. Just letting you guys know that there are always two sides to each story, and there should be careful consideration of both sides before posting your opinions. I'm not entirely pro-LFS, but I do understand their situation.
As for good quality fish, i dont believe that any of us breeders will be able to sell many good quality fish at a significantly higher price than what is normal for that species in the market at the time. The point is that people pay more and go to greater effort to produce good quality, but still get the same returns as if they continued inbreeding the cheapest fish they can get. How many people do you think are willing to do that? Well, quite a few actually, but far more will do just the opposite..
So what are YOU guys doing to improve the fish locally?
#23
shaperau
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- Forum Member Joined: 15-August 02
Posted 14 October 2002 - 03:32 AM
very good points.
It is sad that it has turned out that way though, with people getting into it as a great hobby, then quickly hoping to make some money out of it. I wonder how many people actually enjoy watching their fish anymore ? I am fairly new to the whole fish keeping thing, so maybe it will wear off for me as well, but i still enjoy spending at least 30 minutes a day just sitting and watching the antics of my fish. For me they are there first and foremost as a hobby, something I really enjoy doing. as such, i personally would pay more for good quality fish. for me the idea of a "profit" from breeding fish is to get enough credit from the lfs to cover food and the occasional new tank!
It is sad that it has turned out that way though, with people getting into it as a great hobby, then quickly hoping to make some money out of it. I wonder how many people actually enjoy watching their fish anymore ? I am fairly new to the whole fish keeping thing, so maybe it will wear off for me as well, but i still enjoy spending at least 30 minutes a day just sitting and watching the antics of my fish. For me they are there first and foremost as a hobby, something I really enjoy doing. as such, i personally would pay more for good quality fish. for me the idea of a "profit" from breeding fish is to get enough credit from the lfs to cover food and the occasional new tank!
#24
mtchye
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- Validating Joined: 07-September 02
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Location: Willetton
Posted 14 October 2002 - 05:40 PM
Actually, I'm sure most people are not jaded by their fish. I'm sure most actually enjoy breeding them, raising the fry, and then selling them. Its just less likely for them to want to pay more for better quality to breed from.
I doubt anyone will be breeding fish without still having an interest in them.. It would be a very unprofitable business indeed!
I doubt anyone will be breeding fish without still having an interest in them.. It would be a very unprofitable business indeed!
#25
madjak
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- Forum Member Joined: 14-October 02
Posted 14 October 2002 - 06:58 PM
I'm coming from a different point of view than other people on this forum. I've only just started keeping tropic fish. In the four months since I got my first tank, I now have 4 tanks and two breeding pairs of angels.
So far I have had one successful batch, and it's been great watching the fry grow and I might even get them to a sellable size.
I would really like to get into breeding fish more seriously but really I have no idea where to start. If I was to buy fish I would rather pay extra for fish that are of better quality. The problem is that I have no idea where to find quality fish and my only reliable sources are people in fish stores and this forum. So I have to rely on other people to give me advice on fish and tell me what are good quality and most likely I will end up paying a huge premium on those fish.
But there is a learning cycle to it all. You need to be ripped and burnt a few times to know it before it happens again! It's called experience...
So does anyone want to sell me some good fish at hopefully not a hugely inflated price?
So far I have had one successful batch, and it's been great watching the fry grow and I might even get them to a sellable size.
I would really like to get into breeding fish more seriously but really I have no idea where to start. If I was to buy fish I would rather pay extra for fish that are of better quality. The problem is that I have no idea where to find quality fish and my only reliable sources are people in fish stores and this forum. So I have to rely on other people to give me advice on fish and tell me what are good quality and most likely I will end up paying a huge premium on those fish.
But there is a learning cycle to it all. You need to be ripped and burnt a few times to know it before it happens again! It's called experience...
So does anyone want to sell me some good fish at hopefully not a hugely inflated price?
#26
Chris Perth
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- Forum Member Joined: 21-June 02
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Location: Eaton
Posted 15 October 2002 - 01:50 AM
Having read the above posts at length - I can see that there are conflicting thoughts here - You want to buy good quality fish from the LFS and at a CHEAP price, but you want TOP prices for your fry/juveniles - sorry, but it doesnt work, as in order to sell cheaper he/she (the LFS) must buy cheaper. Also true is the fact that some LFS engage in a little profiteering in the initial stages as it does not take long for we hobbiests, come backyard breeders to flood the market, effectively leaving the LFS holding the bag (of fish in this case) which have cost him a considerable amount in the first place.
Also consider the cost and risks attached to a small number of 'illegal imports' compared to say oscars etc which can be purchased in bulk and relatively cheapely from Singapore. Quarqntine costs are the drawback here.
This is a very generalised rule of thumb, but you could reasonably expect to get about a ¼ of retail for cash, and up to a third for Credit. Depending on the availability/scarcity of the fish at the time.
Anyway the bottom line is 'If you don't want to pay the price at the LFS, Don't buy the fish and similarly if you don't like the price you are offered for fish don't sell them. do it all privately - however the LFS do have the ability to get the new and unusual which we don't. That's the dilemer.
As for Newbie - join the PCS if you haven't already, as there is always someone who can put you on to a source for good fish, and keep an eye on these type of boards - and be prepared to pay half to a third of retail.
Also consider the cost and risks attached to a small number of 'illegal imports' compared to say oscars etc which can be purchased in bulk and relatively cheapely from Singapore. Quarqntine costs are the drawback here.
This is a very generalised rule of thumb, but you could reasonably expect to get about a ¼ of retail for cash, and up to a third for Credit. Depending on the availability/scarcity of the fish at the time.
Anyway the bottom line is 'If you don't want to pay the price at the LFS, Don't buy the fish and similarly if you don't like the price you are offered for fish don't sell them. do it all privately - however the LFS do have the ability to get the new and unusual which we don't. That's the dilemer.
As for Newbie - join the PCS if you haven't already, as there is always someone who can put you on to a source for good fish, and keep an eye on these type of boards - and be prepared to pay half to a third of retail.
#27
Chris Perth
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- Forum Member Joined: 21-June 02
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Location: Eaton
Posted 15 October 2002 - 01:54 AM
If you are interested in rostratus, leluiepi, S. multipunctatus or bristlenose give me a call 9527 4155.
#28
00 MooRRii 00
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- Forum Member Joined: 16-August 02
Posted 15 October 2002 - 01:58 AM
hey chris may be interested in mukties and rostratus if the price is right also has a mate looking for quality leluiepi
#29
TI
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- Forum Member Joined: 12-October 02
Posted 15 October 2002 - 02:09 AM
still got any leleupi and how big and and how much are they
#30
peddigree
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- Forum Member Joined: 14-October 02
Posted 15 October 2002 - 02:46 AM
haha u guys r funny doin the deals on this post lol ... Yer i got in the fish hobby before i even thought about breeding i only been keeping cichlid for 6 months and i watch my fish every morning before school (instead of t.v.) for at least 20 minutes and most night for 20mins-30 mins there awesome and especially since i got this pair of fuelloborni's its so lively !!! im only breeding these for experience and untill i get a job (cos im a bum lol ) i probably wont get into breeding fully but right now im happy with what i have ! well thanx for all your idea's geeeees it take me ages to read the posts ! yer im not selling my fish any more so its all cool !!! thanx for the posts bye
!!! im only breeding these for experience and untill i get a job (cos im a bum lol ) i probably wont get into breeding fully but right now im happy with what i have ! well thanx for all your idea's geeeees it take me ages to read the posts ! yer im not selling my fish any more so its all cool !!! thanx for the posts bye
#31
Chris Perth
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- Forum Member Joined: 21-June 02
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Location: Eaton
Posted 15 October 2002 - 02:56 AM
Ring me 95274155
#32
perthcichlid
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- Forum Member Joined: 30-May 02
Posted 15 October 2002 - 09:04 PM
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Having read the above posts at length - I can see that there are conflicting thoughts here - You want to buy good quality fish from the LFS and at a CHEAP price, but you want TOP prices for your fry/juveniles - sorry, but it doesnt work, as in order to sell cheaper he/she (the LFS) must buy cheaper. Also true is the fact that some LFS engage in a little profiteering in the initial stages as it does not take long for we hobbiests, come backyard breeders to flood the market, effectively leaving the LFS holding the bag (of fish in this case) which have cost him a considerable amount in the first place.
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LoL Well said Chris, my thoughts exactly..
BTW Chris's fish are good quality, I've seen most of them and its all good.. (especially the leleupi..! ) 
Having read the above posts at length - I can see that there are conflicting thoughts here - You want to buy good quality fish from the LFS and at a CHEAP price, but you want TOP prices for your fry/juveniles - sorry, but it doesnt work, as in order to sell cheaper he/she (the LFS) must buy cheaper. Also true is the fact that some LFS engage in a little profiteering in the initial stages as it does not take long for we hobbiests, come backyard breeders to flood the market, effectively leaving the LFS holding the bag (of fish in this case) which have cost him a considerable amount in the first place.
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LoL Well said Chris, my thoughts exactly..
BTW Chris's fish are good quality, I've seen most of them and its all good..
(especially the leleupi..! ) Perth Cichlid Society Forums
http://pub79.ezboard...hcichlidsociety
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