29 replies to this topic

[waruna]

"Malawi bloat" is a disease perptuated by microscopic flagellates (parasites) that are commonly found in healthy fish. These one-celled protozoans reproduce by binary fission. They can occur on the skin, in the intestine, internal organs, and in the blood of fish.

Intestinal flagellates can be found in many fish which they do not harm. The pathogenicity of the organism varies from fish to fish. Thus, Angelfish may not be affected at all by the same flagellates that damage say a Discus. The intestines of these fish can contain millions of flagellates averaging in size of about 8-12 microns. Here is a list of some commonly known flagellates:

A. Hexamita
B. Spironucleus
c. Trichomanas
D. Bodamonas
E. Protoopalina


The most recognized are the first two.

Most researchers support the view that some of these protozoans reside in the intestines of healthy fish (dormant), but can proliferate to harmful numbers under stressful conditions.

Here is a recent quote from Ad Konings from his book Back to Nature Guide to Malawi Cichlids 2nd. edition pg. 46:

"Malawi Bloat is believed to be caused by a flagellate (a unicellular animal, a protozoan). This flagellate occurs in the intestines of all Malawi cichlids but normally causes no harm since the fish's immune system can cope with it. However, in a stressful situation such a balance may disappear and the fish may lose its resistance against an outbreak of a flagellate "attack". This often leads to bloat."

Fish are very good at fighting off disease, but when exposed to stressful conditions over a lengthy periods of time their immune systems weaken, thereby exposing them to the possibility of contracting various diseases. Under "stress" the organism multiplies causing considerable localised damage. Once severe enough, the intestinal lining is penetrated and the organism enters the blood causing systemic and organ infections. In large numbers they can block the intestinal tract of a fish creating the"bloat"effect.

Some stressors:

1. Low oxygen (O2) levels
2. High nitrite (NO2) levels
3. High nitrate (NO3) levels
4. High ammonia levels (NH3)
5. High or low temperature levels
6. Water pH
7. Lighting
8. Rough handling fish
9. Overcrowding
10. Not enough shelter
11. Harassment
12. Excessive salt
13. Improper diet (specifically herbivores)

What one should remember, is that the parasitical outbreak is brought upon by any number of stressors (some listed above), many times in conjunction with one another. Therefore, sometimes the best way to treat a disease is to prevent it from ever happening. A clean non-stressful environment will breed colorful, thriving cichlids.

If they get bloat from diet, is this in fact something different from bloat due to internal parasites?

No. They are one in the same. Diet in this case being the "stressor".

Is bloat only caused by these parasites, which in turn only become a problem if the fish is too stressed, which in turn can result from any number of causes, including diet, excess salts, etc?

As far as what has been proven, yes. Although, some tend to argue bloat can be bacterial in nature. I tend to agree with experts who feel bacterial complications are secondary in occurance only after the parasite has intially infiltrated the host.

The quote below is far from the truth..

If it's just a Tropheus tank then i would stick to an all vegi base diet, if you also have meat eaters as well you just need to use some tricks to keep them away from the higher protein food as much as possible

There is NO such thing as too much protein in fish feeds, it's the digestibility of the feed/protein which is important. Also there is NO such thing as a 100% herbivorous fish, all fish are opportunistic feeders! Anyone who has ever kept/ bred Ts. will tell you that Ts. will HUNT their own fry and eat them if they could. If they are a 100% herbivorous fish what is the reason behind this? Although they are classed as a “herbivorous fish” In the wild Ts. feed on many crustaceans that live on algae beds, this is how they get their protein, in turn how they grow. This has been common knowledge for a long time now.

As mentioned above stress is the number one killer, moving Ts. from one tank to another is simply enough (sometimes) to give them bloat. Even a good thing like a water change can sometimes stress them out and you could end up with a case of bloat. Don't change things, keep it simple. Make sure you match your water to the tank water when you do water changes, pre mixed with correct temp, balanced PH/GH/KH etc etc.

Bloat can be cured very easily, Ts. Should ALWAYS look/be hungry, if you notice otherwise treat them straight way.

[Buccal]

That was the best simplified passage on bloat I've ever seen, good stuff waruna.
Just a little extra about tropheus alone. With just about every other fish you can break up colonies, add extra individuals and merge groups. I'm not saying this is impossible but eight times out of ten, any change or intervention in the colony will confuse them all as to who now is the alfa male, this also is major stress.
All tropheus keepers should have DMZ on standby always.

[bradfitzy]

Imo bloat in Ts is not very easy to treat.... that is if it is even bloat that is the problem and not dropsy........can be very difficult to tell the diff.
I have kept a few diff Ts and spawned a few as well and imo diets high in protein are not a good idea.....any Tropheus keeper will tell you that.
Ts most definitely are the closest thing to vegetarian fish there are and the vast majority of there diet in the wild is algae but will still take the opportunity to eat other foods if it arises.
Some of the best T breeders i know will let there fish 'spit' there fry in the tank with very few fry if any being eaten by the parents.
The best thing you can do with your tropheus is let them be.
Get the water quality right and stable ....pick the food you want to feed them ....then just let them do there thing....if you are constantly messing with ph gh temp etc etc this is when you will stress the fish and start having problems.
They tend to have very little ability to be able to handle change.
Good quality food is a good idea .......nls or flora are some of the best i have found.
Best med to have on hand for them ( if you can find it ) is clout imo.
These are just my experiences.
If you want to learn alot more about tropheus then there is a fantastic Australian tropheus site that has some of the best articles you will find on keeping Ts.....just google tropheus and im sue you will find a few fanatics around.

Brad

[Ham]

Pritty well spot on brad most of the time the most i will do to all my tanks of Ts
is sit and observe and enjoy ,
I have several tanks that i havnt done not one water chainge for about 3 years just add a new sponge filter now and again
( keeping all the old ones in the tank aswell ) and had great success with lots of freely spat fry in the tanks
also i dont go for the nice display type of tanks just heavy crowded tanks with lots n lots of terracotta pots cover for aggro and fry
and i use no chemicals at all,
I also have a few black polly tubs with Ts in them i cant even see the fish i think they are ok can only see
the surge of bubbles breaking the surface at feeding time ,( angry little fish )
If it aint broke dont mess with it

Sorry about spelling cant spell
Graham.

[waruna]

I have kept a few diff Ts and spawned a few as well and imo diets high in protein are not a good idea.....any Tropheus keeper will tell you that.

Hi Brad,

I fed all my Ts. fry exclusively on NLS Grow formula which has min 50% protein, yet i never lost a single Ts. for bloat. There are lots of Ts. keepers out there who does the same.. Let me ask you this, when you say high in protein, how high do you exactly mean? Give me a %.. Most hobbyists consider 50% to be very high..!

[Bowdy]

Gees ham 3 years without one water change and have no problems ? Surelly there must be some sort of negative effect after so long. Cheers.

[waruna]

Sorry if i'm going off topic here..

Are Most Fish Omnivorous?

To the saltwater fish aquarist, Atlantic Blue Tangs (Acanturus coeruleus) are considered to be primarily herbivorous. Although they are indeed browsers, with lips and dentition designed for snipping off the tips and branches of algae, through feed trial studies we know that they require much more than algae to be maintained in captivity. A study was performed by Dr. Ruth Francis-Floyd and Chris Tilghman, from the University of Florida, involving captive nutritional management of herbivorous reef fish using Atlantic Blue Tang (Acanthurus coeruleus) as test subjects, divided into three groups. The first Group was fed washed seaweed (ulva spp.). The second group was fed commercially prepared food designed for herbivores and the third group was fed another commercial diet that was an all purpose diet (marine protein was in the formula). At the end of the study, the first and the second group suffered a high mortality rate, (approximately 80%), with the surviving fish showing clinical signs of malnourishment. Some had become emaciated to paper-thin condition. The third group had only an approximately 30% mortality but the remaining fish had 400% weight gain! While the information from this study was made available during a lecture on November 29, 2001, at the Marine Ornamentals International Conference, held in Lake Buena Vista, Florida, outside of that conference room the results were never made public.

While ichthyologists are busy describing and classifying new species of fish each year, there is much that is still not known about their biology and behavior in the wild.

While most fish do in fact have specialized feeding methods in the wild, and do ingest a certain amount of matter more than others, in the wild almost all fish are opportunistic feeders. Even the more specialized feeders, such as Atlantic Blue Tangs, ingest a certain amount of nutrients from other sources.

In Africa, the fish found in Lake Malawi and Lake Tanganyika are some of the most specialized feeders found on the planet, yet they too are all opportunistic when it comes to feeding. Many people get too caught up in the amount of greens some species eat, vs. where their protein source in the wild truly comes from. The reality is that even though algae dominates the stomach contents of the majority of certain species of African cichlids, and many of these species have indeed been classified as herbivores, the actual foods that make them grow are insect nymphs and larvae, crustaceans, snails, mites, micro-organisms, and zooplankton, not vegetable matter. This is something that many hobbyists fail to understand.

Some hobbyists may consider feeding Surgeonfish a diet of algae to be more natural than a pellet or flake food, but that couldn't be further from the truth, and the results from the study performed at the University of Florida bear this out.
In the wild, herbivores have to eat constantly for at least 12 hours per day in order to ingest sufficient nutrients. During this period they discharge waste constantly. Under artificial environments, as in an aquarium, they no longer have an unlimited amount of food to graze upon, and even if you could feed them every hour on the hour, it would add massive amounts of pollution to your aquarium. Keep in mind that an aquarium is not even a tiny fraction of a drop in comparison to the volume of water found in an ocean or large lake. In order for aquarium-raised fish that are classified as herbivores to thrive, they must take in sufficient nutrients from their diet, and what takes place in the wild can simply not be duplicated in an aquarium setting.

Carnivores may in fact eat fish in the wild, but those fish will usually be gut-loaded with various smaller life forms, such as zooplankton and phytoplankton. Their prey is part of the natural food chain, and these feeders in the wild provide much more balanced nutrition than frozen silversides found at your local grocery store. Just as captive-raised specimens, even carnivores in the wild will consume a certain amount of vegetable matter to acquire various nutrients that their diet may be lacking in. The reality is that carnivores do not just eat meat, any more than herbivores just eat algae.

[Riggers]

Nice one waruna, so it's basically a good idea to feed a mix then? My fish get all sorts including NLS, other pellets both floating and sinking, veg like pumpkin and zuchinni as well as ocassional treats from the freezer everybodys happy then.

[waruna]

Sure, a "mix" is much better than feeding a single ingredient.. This "mix" can be found in a single formula.. No different to putting everything (all your ingredients) in to a bucket and then grabbing a handful and feeding that.. But be sure what you are feeding is a complete “mix”!

[Riggers]

Cool as thanks Waruna