62 replies to this topic

[Fish Antics]

The issue of line breeding and aquarium strain's is another debate altogether which we could start another discussion thread or reopen one of the many older ones. I would like to keep this debate and discussion on the topic of Marbled Peacocks as Hybrids or not.
There is a lot of conjector and opinions for both sides put forward with no actual evidence, plus some information from experts. Ollie makes some strong arguments towards the possibility of the gene appearing, but this is a theory of how it could possibly happen. He also admits there is a possibility of the gene being intorduced by hybridization and their is a genuine concern about the shape of the early marbled peacocks first imported as discussed with Kev at Malaga,Ollie and Colin at Aquotix.
I dont believe the government should make any decissions on the basis of Internet forums discussions but actual scientific research and the correct risk assesment. The species should go through the same process as any other species.
The discussion is in relation to this clubs position on Hybrids promotion and therefore if Marbled Peacocks should come under that banner. We cannot ignore or not publically discuss the issue in fear of what other government departments may or may not decide to do.
There are a few examples of Hybrids breeding true to form as mention including the Cryptoheros spirillum x Amatitlania (Archocentrus) nigrofasciata which produce viable fertile fish which breed true to form.

Tony

[Hood]

If this point of whether the club allows trading of hybrids is to be serious Tony, the discussion must become more broad than just about the OB peacock... For instance the club allows trading of Discus:
Discus Species:
Symphysodon aequifasciatus
Symphysodon discus
Symphysodon tarzoo

Discus ( Symphysodon spp.) are a genus of three species of cichlid freshwater fishes.

Now, all discus other than wild caught have been created by crossing these 3 species!
Yet the club freely allows trading of these and doae not hinder there trade what-so-ever...and this is just one example...

Seems to me there is a larger discussion needed In order for club policy not to be contradictary.

[Fish Antics]

This particular thread is to do with the Marbled peacock. There are many other treads and posts regards the broader issue of Hybrids, the clubs position on Hybrids and even the Discus debate. If you had of attended any of the Heiko talks he answered those questions very well in his presentations and even more so in his books.

Heiko recognises 3 species of Discus:
Symphysodon discus,
S. aequifasciatus,
S. haraldi

An Magazine Article on Discus speciesinteresting link on this issue:

[Poncho]

Now, all discus other than wild caught have been created by crossing these 3 species!

This has been as hotly debated on here as the marble peacock issue and expert opinion has been sought too on whether these are hybrids, telling us no they are not. Do a search on discus hybrid to find these debates.

I don't think it's productive to start talking about discus on this thread but agree that a larger discussion on the clubs policy would be healthy - not so much whether it is contradictory but more so around what specifically it is trying to achieve (elimination of hybrids from the hobby?, conservation of cichlid varients in aquariums? I honestly don't know and think the point has been lost at least amongst most of our members) and whether it is effective.

[Hood]

But through allowing this you as a club are making the statment that you condone interspecific crossing... Does this mean people can start selling assorted peacocks on here? As they are just interspecific crosses of of the aulonocara genus...

...and while we are at it... Do you not feel your position working at a store that sells hybrids (flowerhorns etc.) is contradictory to your role of being on the commitee of a club that tries to prevent thier trade.
Now this is nothing personal, I have always gotten along with you Tony and enjoyed our conversations everytime you have come to buy fish off me, or I have come to you. But in your role in this society I find this, as do others, rather contradictory.

Eitherway you can try and limit this discussion to just one fish but it is too late it already moved to a larger arena as soon as people started making comparisons to other species.

[Fish Antics]

Again I would like to keep this tread specifically to the issue being discussed, but am happy to discuss all other issues. I might seek to clean this thread up and repost these other comments in a seperate thread if that is ok with everyone, but to answer you questions.

Discus varieties are 99% all from the one species. This is because the Symphysodon Haraldi already come with such a wide colour varieties and are the hardiest of all the species. Not saying there has not been interspecies crosses, however they are rare.

My personal opinions on Hybrids have nothing to do with the club. As a committee member I am merely following the Clubs rules and policies. I can not impose my views and tell any person what fish they are allowed to keep or any shop what fish they are allowed to sell. The only thing I can do is advice people what they are buying is a hybrid and try to educate them as to why this is a bad thing. If I deceided tomorrow I like Flowerhorns I could not change the rules of the club just to suit me or the small number of people who like them.
I will admit that one of the reasons I am so involved with the club is that I do agree with the stand on Hybrids and the tireless work they do to benifit and protect the hobby here in WA and nationallly.

Tony

[Hood]

Then how can you can you consciously sell them in a store and take money for your services to do so, then be on the commitee and come on here and stand the other side of the line and expect people to take your opinion seriously mate? It is highly contradictive.

[Poncho]

I agree that this thread should be spilt. What Tony does at work has no relevance to whether marbled peacocks were crossed with a mbuna

[Hood]

Ok then, can the commitee consciously say that what Tony does in the shop and what Tony stands for on the commitee is not contradictory and technically against PCS T&C since PCS is not the forum. As you have stated so many times previously?

[Hood]

This particular thread is to do with the Marbled peacock. There are many other treads and posts regards the broader issue of Hybrids, the clubs position on Hybrids and even the Discus debate. If you had of attended any of the Heiko talks he answered those questions very well in his presentations and even more so in his books.

Heiko recognises 3 species of Discus:
Symphysodon discus,
S. aequifasciatus,
S. haraldi

An Magazine Article on Discus speciesinteresting link on this issue:

My mistake copying and pasting, you are correct mate.

But if you check squidoo and many other sites under discus and scroll down to the creation of the species we find today, and look at the first man-made, the blue turq you will find:

Blue Turquoise Discus Blue Turquoise Discus These beautiful blue fish are usually entirely blue with red patterns/ striations on the body dorsal and anal fins, and on the gill covers. Many of these were originally developed in the United States by Jack Wattley from several crossings o wild and tank raised blue Symphysodon Haraldi - and green discus - symphysodon Aequifasciatus

Sorry, that took a while, it is really hard to copy and paste on my phone.

[Poncho]

Technically, it's not against the T&C's as he doesn't do it on the forum to which the T&C's relate to.

The committee is not an individual entity so I can't consciously comment for it. But as one member of the committee, I can say I do not see the situation as a contradiction. Tony has a personal view and a job, which contrast each other.

A good analogy is like saying it is not appropriate for a vegetarian to work at Coles because they will be obliged to sell meat.

[Hood]

So the PCS is the forum then?
...if not what exactly is it you do and what do my fees go towards?

[Cawdor]

As far as I am aware Tony has nothing to do with selecting fish stock for sale. Just because a vegetarian works at a burger joint doesn't make that person a meat eater.

And even if Tony was a hybrid enthusiast, he could still be a member of the club and the committee. So there is really nothing to discuss in that regard.

[Hood]

Ok, but I thought technically the trade of hybrids was against PCS policy as a club, regardless of the forum?
Or what is it exactly the "club" stands for?

[Poncho]

T&C's = terms and conditions for the use of this forum

PCS = a club that provides:
1. an online forum
2. regular meetings and presentations on fish keeping matters
3. library
4,5,6.... various other things that you can look up yourself in the forum "PCS - the club"

The club is ruled by its constitution as an incorporated body. So when it is said that the PCS is not the forum, it means the PCS is not entirely a forum, there are other aspects to it. It really is that simple, I don't know why people can't comprehend such a basic concept.

Your fees go towards various things - for instance we have just had a first class speaker by the name of Heiko Bleher make a presentation to this club on his expeditions into remote Amazonia. It costs money for that to happen despite ticket sales. Believe it or not, some members have a greater interest in their hobby other than participating in forums and selling their fry out of their garage. This club caters for that interest as opposed to other forums.

I recommend you actually attend a meeting or event, rather than limiting your PCS experience to forum debates. I think you'll find the sense of community here at PCS much greater than on any other forum-based group simply because we are broader than just a forum.

[Hood]

Ok then, if trading hybrids is against forum policy and the forum is part of the Club, then how can the club take money from sponsers, that knowingly sell hybrids, for advertising on the forum?

[Poncho]

How can the US trade with Iran despite having very, very different policies?

US Iran trade

We are different organisations with different views on the hobby. That doesn't mean we can't partner for mutually beneficial outcomes.

[Hood]

So the clubs "soul" is for sale at a price?

[Den]

As far as I am aware Tony has nothing to do with selecting fish stock for sale. Just because a vegetarian works at a burger joint doesn't make that person a meat eater.

seems a very narrow view of the presented scenario, while not a meat eater it does make them into something else, Im sure I dont need to point out what that is.

Im against racism, but Im a member of the KKK
Im an athiest and Im currently the Archbishop of Canterbury

[Poncho]

Yes Hood our soul is for sale

Mine is too! $50 and it's all yours