58 replies to this topic

[Cicolid]

I congratulate you Andrea...

Very well written, all points covered, no bagging Gov' Dept's, & some good proposals regarding unwanted fish...

Well done again

Cheers
Col

[Fish Antics]

Can I just start by saying that as a committee member on the PCS I have to tell you that most of the people who volunteer their time to run this club over the years do a great job and deserve a lot of credit for many positive aspects in the hobby including this great forum.
I can also tell you that when this article came out we have been in contact with the Dept of fisheries on the issue and in fact assisted in identifying the species for them. We have also conveyed our concerns about the irresponsible release of an exotic fish and assured them that the club does not encourage this practice. I also spoke to them about promoting the message of not releasing fish into the wild which we will look into further options, including our new project; going into schools. We have also volunteered our services to assist the Dept in anyway we can.
Members of the PCS will get all this information in their monthly newsletter.
Comments about the PCS and its committee no longer upset me as a lot of people will always complain about something, however I was surprised by some of the ill informed and petty comments.
I have quite enjoyed watching this topic and was encouraged by some of the ideas presented and enthusiasm and would like to be involved.
The club is only as strong as its members and those who support it. To those who knock it I say join and be a part of it, help out if you can. To those who say they don’t have the time, it takes less time than the amount of time spent on these forums. In fact if the only contribution you can make is to help running the forum then why not do that.
If you want to take on an issue such as the one presented here then why not do it as part of a club.

Anyone who wants to talk to me about the PCS and what we are doing please give me a call.

Tony
0401990366

[anchar]

Tony, perhaps this post of yours should have come at an earlier date so that members/forum users knew that a position had been taken. This is the first that anyone (outside of the committee) knew that something pro-active had been done. Afterall, this debate has been running for a few weeks now and it's only natural to presume that there had not been any communication with the media...all I've seen in print and on TV is the negatives...I haven't seen any comments from the PCS. It isn't just the fisheries etc. that need to be spoken to; the public who have seen that naughty aquariasts have caused the problem should here the position of the club too.

Andrea

[Den]

Hi All

Great letter Merjo.

Cheers
Den

[Fish Antics]

This post sparked my interest because it was an interesting idea of a group of people who had an interest in going out on a scientific based expedition to investigate the Cichlid problem from a hobbyist point of view. If its purpose was purely to get the PCS to do it Im disappointed, so many people put their opinions across saying that the club should do this or that, it should be run this way or that, the club has should be responsible for whatever'BUT I don’t have time to get involved, or its not up to me I’m just giving my opinion, or my favorite: I can give good advice and not bother to be in the club but I expect them to listen and do things the way I say.
Apart from myself on behalf of the PCS, has anyone actually done anything apart from complained here? Who has actually contacted the media or the Dept of fisheries? Don’t wait for someone else to do it. The more voices the better.

Tony

[anchar]

Tony I think the point that a few people were trying to make was that any comments/moves should come under the PCS banner. I'm sure the PCS committee would have been "miffed" if individuals had gone ahead and posted "unofficial" letters on behalf of the PCS...they really should have an official letterhead to be taken seriously by the media. There just didn't "seem" to be any organised action. Just my take on it.

Andrea

[Den]

Hi All

Expedition : New Ideas

Thanks everyone for your feedback, as the new information means we will have to take a different approach to this situation. I guess any study now will have to be done in the aftermath of the slaughter and I have a few ideas. Firstly we can check the immediate area to see if there has been a successful eradication, we can also check outer areas to see if the fish has spread outside of the treated zone, we could then report our findings to fisheries. Any comments??, Dr Cumcumber I guess there is still more work there to do even after the eradiaction programe takes place, what are your thoughts?

If people are still interested in this trip please let me know and we can start a new thread and get it organised..

Cheers
Den

PS : Tony if you read this entire thread you would see most of us here are queing up to help out in some way, your suggestion that I started this post just to get the PCS to take on the expedition is offensive, you make it sound like a choir, for me it's part of my hobby, learning about fish is something I enjoy. If you read everything through you'd see certain other issues related to the media were drawn into this thread that would require the attention of an official leader.

Some of us were just waiting on some advice or aknowlegement from PCS leadership whether our intensions are heading in the right direction or even better an official PCS leader to co-ordinate and direct our intended efforts to help, however you have made it clear that we shouldn't expect that so I guess we all appologize for having that expectation.

Even though some people here aren't currently members of PCS(including me) most of us do whatever we can to help people on this forum and I guess that is the best contribution some can make, as for me I hope to contribute much more in future, especially when I retire in a few years

Cheers
Den

[bushie]

fish antics, tony,

please do not accept this as a personal attack on either you or the commitee, this is just a few local hobbyists worrying about the future of this industry in W.A.
this is also nothing to do with cichlid peoples, commitees or people that have got nothing better to do than look at the internet all day.
this is about the whole industry from goldfish to shops to guppies to discus to electric blues, yellows........ you get the idea!
I am not a member of any society.
I do not keep geophagus braziliensus( sorry about the spelling).
I do not keep cichlids( as such) discus excluded.
but I think this is an issue that one and all should be involved in and be united in as it threatens our hobby.
tony, if I may be so bold as to take your quotes and correct where neccesary:

"This post sparked my interest because it was an interesting idea of a group of people who had an interest in going out on a scientific based expedition to investigate the Cichlid problem from a hobbyist point of view. "

this post should not have sparked anyones interest as there was a previous post almost a month prior and i would have thought someone would have fallen off their chair then! I DID!!!

"If its purpose was purely to get the PCS to do it Im disappointed,"

not so much to get the pcs to do it....JUST GET INVOLVED!!!!

"so many people put their opinions across saying that the club should do this or that, it should be run this way or that, the club has should be responsible for whatever'"

no one is trying to tell you how to run the club(everyone appreciates the way you run the club) all they are asking for is direction to help in this matter.

"BUT I don’t have time to get involved, or its not up to me I’m just giving my opinion, or my favorite: I can give good advice and not bother to be in the club but I expect them to listen and do things the way I say."

if they didn`t have time, then they wouldn`t be here trying to organize something.

"Apart from myself on behalf of the PCS, has anyone actually done anything apart from complained here? Who has actually contacted the media or the Dept of fisheries? Don’t wait for someone else to do it. The more voices the better."

I, myself have contated bernadette @ 720 am abc radio,
topoline ( brian ) has contacted karen valenti of local community newspapers, merjo ( andrea ) has written a letter which can be signed and sent by many voicing their concerns.

obviously people are doing something but we were doing this off our own backs, because after five or six weeks of voicing our concerns, it did not look like anything was being done or was not voiced to the community.
now that I know that the cichlid society has involved itself it makes a big difference when I speak to the relevent authaurities or media regarding the matter.

tony if I may ask, could you please pm me with your full name and the authorities and media you have spoken/ written to with a basic outline of the pcs` stance and the persons name at the dept of fisheries that you delt with so I can relate to media in future with some background regarding the P.C.S.

and please,.....once again.... understand,
I am not having a go at you,... the P.C.S.......the members etc.
I am just a concerned aquarist, concerned for the future for all of us.

I will start a new thread titled concerned.
if anyone can, will,or might be able to help in any way. sign in
I`m no public speaker or letter writer, but i`ll have a go for what I believe in.
surely a biology student, a marine biologist, a public speaker, a future politician is out there willing to help out.
pcs forum members and especially moderators welcome

I run a small business 10hrs a day, prep and plan for another 4hrs a day
in the mean time I am relandscaping a large block and renovating a house.
you got no time........bull****.... make time it`s up to you.

thanks all

BUSHIE

P.S. this has been copied and will be sent to other forums for their support and feedback.

[mtchye]

Just like to jump in to add a few comments. This thread has lots of good energies but is becoming adversarial. What a lot of people don't understand is the frustrations faced by committee members in the day to day running of the club and the attempts to please everyone. This can often be exacerbated by people extremely critical of the Society and the committee yet unwilling to officially put up their hands to be part of the consultative team process that every committee must have.

It is all well and good to say I've contacted this person or that, I think you should do this, or take a certain position. As an individual that is certainly your prerogative. However from a committee perspective (having tried and failed miserably in terms of being able to commit the time) these sorts of things take time to be decided on and are often debated internally before the club as a whole can present an official stance. There is a very good reason for this, and that is to digest the diverse views of the club constituents and assess their merits, and turn out a plan of action that is in the best interests of the hobby and the club. This is not always easy, and even more difficult to organise due to the varying schedules of the committee members and a chronic lack of support from most in the hobby.

The internet has arisen as a medium where everyone can debate these issues easily and conveniently. However this has also given rise to those who choose to express their opinions and expend their energies solely from an online perspective. Spending hours at home, on a computer, typing out your thoughts is very different from heading out to a committee meeting that may be an hour or more away on a Tuesday night, spending another Tuesday night at meetings, plus many more hours doing administrative and preparatory tasks that every club has. This is on top of work, your own aquariums, other hobbies, life in general etc.

I urge all of you who are commenting on the perceived handling (mishandling?) of this issue by the club to voice your concerns at meetings, put your hand up for the committee etc. Far too few of us are willing to actually make an official commitment to the cause, and all too willing to comment whenever the club is having problems. Many of you have been in the game for years, many who haven’t been in the hobby long have lots of valuable energy and ideas to contribute – leave the keyboard behind and step up. The committee is a democratic process and everyone is welcome no matter what your opinions or general stance is on things, background, knowledge, etc. All that is required is a positive attitude and a commitment of time.

As a democratic process, the officers elected by the club have to consult together on any issues pertaining to the hobby that are raised. By necessity and as is normal with any such process, this takes time and will usually involve the majority of the committee’s inputs. This will mean that decisions take more time, especially given the monthly nature of committee meetings. It is very difficult to be ringing around trying to get everyone to agree on a time to meet for extraordinary meetings.

If you have an issue of note, come to a committee meeting and make a note of it. Non members are welcome to have their say. Don’t assume that committee members will read this forum. It is provided as an adjunct and supplement to the society’s meetings and not a replacement. Many committee members in the past have not had the internet or felt comfortable participating in this medium, as is their right. The most appropriate ways to address any issues you want to raise is to come to a meeting or contact a committee member by mail or phone.

This is not a post aimed at any particular individual. We need to redirect our attentions to the issues at hand and stop trying to lay blame. Constructive and productive input is welcomed, and should be directed into the appropriate channels.

Other than those 2 (or 10) cents, some great ideas in here. Keep up the discussion and I’m sure the committee would value your presence at a future meeting!

Cheers!
Vincent

[bushie]

this is becoming point the finger game.
please read my posts carefully as I have not directed anything at the P.C.S.
it is aimed at every aquarist.
the p.c.s` help would be appreciated and that is all.
sorry if I have upset anyone as this was not my intentions at all.

[anchar]

I understand that things take time to discuss, compile etc. in a committee...but 4+ weeks? The letter I wrote took 10 mins...couldn't someone have written it, emailed it to other members for additions/edits and sent off within 48 hrs. tops?

Andrea

[Fish Antics]

Can I just start of by saying that when I spoke to Rob at the the Dept. of Fisheries that he did say that the issue has been exaggerate in the media.
This issue is one in a few which could greatly affect the hobby. Importantly this may add fuel to the fire for the proposed legislation on the National Ornamental Fish Policy. This legislation will effectively rule our keeping any fish that is not on the allowable import list. This includes a lot of the Cichlids and fish we take for granted.
The PCS had a meeting where the Department sent two representatives to discuss this issue. Those reps were Rob Tregonning, Senior Policy Officer, Environmental Assessment and Craig Asbury who is the Translocation officer who is also in charge of eradication of species.
I have to say I was disappointed with the Turn out from the Cichlid club however the turnout from other clubs made up the numbers.
These two people are the contacts I use. I offered our assistance which was appreciated but not required at this stage. However I did express our desire to work with the department in the future to improve the education of the public on keeping exotic fish and not releasing them into our water ways which we will continue to pursue.
At the previous meeting mentioned Craig gave detailed accounts of his work eradicating exotic species. During this discussion the topic was raised about hobbyist catching these fish and either keeping them or using them for live food. The department is against this as it “encourages” an industry and there are fines involved.
However the initial idea of a scientific based program may have a good chance with working in conjunction with the dept. I would also like to be involved if this can be orgainsed.
As to my involvement with the media, my work (Ratings) prohibits me from getting involved with the media; however others in the club I know have gone to community newspapers.

Den I was not trying to insult you I took my lead from your comment:

" made my expedition research intensions as a basic gesture to spark perhaps something greater from the PCS committee that appeared to not be taking any action

"
My venting is not directed at anyone in particular I am sick to death of people who sit on their keyboards and complain and do nothing else to help the situation.
For those who have done something terrific. The more people who ring or write the better. You don’t have to be in the club, you don’t have to do it on behalf of the club, just as a concerned hobbyist.

Tony

PS: Den, Bushie and Vincent (mtchye) can I just say great posts, very well written.

[anchar]

Tony...we will have to agree to disagree as to the way I perceive that this matter has been handled. The only point I am trying to make is that it "seemed" that the PCS wasn't officially doing anything. If I was wrong in assuming this, then it was only because there wasn't any communication here between the PCS and it's members. You yourself said you were happy to watch the discussion move along....why didn't you add something to the post and let everyone know that something was either in the pipeline or had been done?

PS: Den, Bushie and Vincent (mtchye) can I just say great posts, very well written.

Obviously a stab at me. This is probably why many people do keep their mouth shut. As soon as someone makes a query and offers to actually produce a letter they are accused of being a trouble-maker. So why bother...I knew I'd be flamed so I wasn't disappointed. I was, however, disappointed at the who the flamers were. In recent years, there have only been two or three people who I think have really contributed in an enthusiastic and positive way to the PCS. You are one of them. I would have thought that you would have been more in agreeance with what I was trying to say than against it.

As far as pointing fingers at those who claim not to have the time to form part of a committee, I ask you this question...have you ever been primary carer for a family member with a mental illness and another who is an invalid? It is easier for me to spend time here as I can drop this the moment I need to, but I cannot commit to being at meetings held all over the suburbs incase I need to be elsewhere. I have always said (and have done so) that I will help where-ever I can. I contribute a lot to these forums by way of providing service announcements, articles, photographs and donations to both the PCS (as Aquatastic and merjo, even though I am not a sponser of this site) and schools. I have also offered to help with social events to try to bring more people together (by way of trivia nights, sporting events, car rallies etc.....all ideas that were knocked on the head I might add). So, I DO do what I can.

Andrea

[Fish Antics]

Andrea You are right. I was having a go at you, and for that I must appoligise. It is not a personal attck on you, I have nothing but respect for you and the way you do buisness.I was particuralry annoyed at the posts directed at the PCS and its commitee. The members of the PCS will be kept upto date thorough both the meetings and newsletter, although this may take longer than some might like.

I dont wish to get invovled in every discussion on the forum and cant speak for the PCS alone, All I can do is raise the issue with the other commettee and members which has been happening behind the scenes.
This Forum is purposly kept free and open to who wish to use it and is therefore not the prefered communication to some of its members as not all have internet. In the past ideas have been taken from the forum to try at the club with poor responce from those in the forum, the Saturday auction a prime example.

One of the future plans for this site is to start a chat facillity and also a members section for PCS members section which may improve things.

Anyway I am not out to offend anyone, If anyone wants to talk to me more about it, you know where I ll be on the first Tuesday of next month at 7.30; at the PCS meeting Sandgate street South Perth

[anchar]

:twisted:

Andrea

[Matthew]

hey Den,

I'd like to step over the political debate (no offence anyone)at the minute and focus on this statement you made.

Firstly we can check the immediate area to see if there has been a successful eradication, we can also check outer areas to see if the fish has spread outside of the treated zone, we could then report our findings to fisheries. Any comments??, Dr Cumcumber I guess there is still more work there to do even after the eradiaction programe takes place, what are your thoughts?

I'll most likely be repeating alot of statements here but I'm not sure if total eradication would be possible and I think your right in saying there will definetly be more work ahead to confront the situation.
The only thing I can suggest as an initial kickoff, is to research more into the type of fish, it's current habitat-which you all have already stated-it's breeding and feeding habits Maybe stomach contents would be a big help to (sorry Andrea), growth rate and most importantly it's ability to evolve. mostly suggest by yourself and the good DR.
Evolution may just be the key factor here. IMO everything evolves and can be traced back to have adapted initially to the current habitat that it currently exists in.
for example: say this all started as a breeding pair that was released into a colder climate/water. Perhaps the breeding habit is spawning after a colder rainfall or drop in temperature, the fry are hatched and grow up in this new environment. Much like a child adapts to where and how it's parents live. Bad analogy I know but does anyone else see where i'm coming from? The fry will thrive and their fry even better. Slowly forming a generation who will know this climate as their own.

I agree, gauge what exists now, what has migrated from where they were found in the river, are we talking 100's (spawns) 1000's (spawns of spawns) 10,000's etc etc. although it may be a bit hard to measure that aspect it would certainly give an idea of how long these things have been there. Whats to say they haven't been there for 20 or 30 years and populate within the millions.
That might be some information to gather out of the (i like how you call it) slaughter.

Now, this is not going to be a very nice idea and most of you might disagree, but does anyone have one (better yet a pair) of these fish that someone can take and replicate their typical south (south/central??) american softwater biotype and test their endurance against local water conditions?
Again, highly debatable in the ethics towards the fish but perhaps a semi decent stance in determining what they are exactly capable of?

in conclusion, Better words could have been used for what i've said, and maybe i've just agreed with everyone but my opinion would be more to look into the fishes status, preferrances and anatomy then after that is established the conditiions of the habitat it is surviving in.
I wish i could help more..

Matt

[Scat]

Having just read through this entire thread all i have to say is as a revived enthusiast and previous member of PCS quite a few years back is that thank god you guys are still going and that we are all very fortunate to have a cichlid society to attend and participate in.

I have very fond memorys of PCS many years ago and am looking forward to rejoining the club within the next month and participating all over again

My two cents

[Den]

No worries Tony

No hard feelings anyone, I don't think anyone is really right or wrong here, it's all just different points of view, all good people doing the best they can do.

Cheers
Den

[Barramundi]

Hello all,

Firstly, I apologise for my lack of input in this thread, I do not have internet access & haven't been online for a couple of weeks. Unfortunately this means that I am not able to keep current with most discussions on the internet, but this was outlined in detail at the SGM in April when I was asked to take on the acting-Presidency. To those who would criticise me for that lack of "participation", & this may sound harsher than it's intended but it's not meant to be, but there was no one else at the SGM who was willing to help, in fact no one who has expressed disappointment in my handling of the forum feedback, was there at the SGM.

That is not said as an excuse, just a statement of fact. As Tony has explained in depth though, the beliefs that the club was indifferent or not involved in the situation was totally inaccurate & misinformed. This matter was discussed at length at the club meeting in May, which is the club's primary forum of discussion. This is not meant as a slight against the internet forum members, but the internet forum is our secondary medium as it services non-members as well as members & obviously our active & financial members are our primary responsibility. Tony has already explained in detail what steps he has taken on behalf of the club & the help the authorities have been provided by us so I won't revisit that.

Re formal media feedback, Tony & I discussed this in depth today as Tony has been in contact with Karen at the Community newspaper Thanks to Brian & I will be contacting her tomorrow to arrange an interview, with Tony's assistance as I do not keep American cichlids & obviously the key cichlid of interest here is the Braziliensis. I will be making a formal statement regarding the clubs official position & role in the hobby & the education we already provide & the steps we have taken since the discovery of the fish in the river & will also refer to other species that have been released in the other states.

Guys I really appreciate the passion & enthusiasm that has been expressed here, it's a good sign. I again apologise that I have not been able to be a part of the online debate that has taken place in this thread. I am unable to change that, or make my presence here more than it is for the foreseeable future, to those who feel this is not good enough, my role is only acting till August so feel free to step up at the August AGM. Again that is not spoken by me harshly, nor do I say it with any malice or resentment. I applaud again the enthusiasm expressed here & I have taken on board the criticism's expressed. Some I can't change & as that was spelled out on day dot & no one else would step up in April so I had to or the club would've closed, then I have to respectfully place the criticism to the side as inevitable & unchangeable. But the things & can do I will endeavour to incorporate & take on board.

Finally, as I am hoping to meet with the paper early next week, any other FACTUAL information you have available please post here & Tony or I will retrieve it & review it prior to the interview to ensure it's taken into account.

Again thanks for the feedback, & I challenge those of you who do want to get involved to be there on the 1st Tuesday in July, join up & lets get this club rolling, there's only so much the dozen (& I'm being generous) people who turn up on Tuesdays can do by ourselves.

Thanks guys.

Justin