149 replies to this topic

[Fish Antics]

Hi Pec/polleni nice to see you back on the forum again, can’t stay away???

The fact that LG flowerhorns have ruined the Trimac bloodline and now as you state they are being passed as red devils shows the danger hybrids posse. It is why the club stands against them by not allowing their promotion and sale.

I do agree with one point raised. Education is important and we could do more. I do think we need to see more articles on here about the dangers of Hybrids and encourage people to avoid them. We could also petition shops to no longer sell them. We cannot force anyone to do anything they don’t want; we can only encourage them to do the right thing.

[luohanfan]

I am (genuinely) interested in what these code of ethics contain and more importantly how you go about enforcing them but please post here and add to the discussion rather than send by pm - it is relevant here.

This is part of the code of ethics..
"This thread is about developing a code of practice and ethics for the flowerhorn hobby, we invite members to add their ideas here as to what you think should be included...
There are many myths and misinformation being spread by opponents of the hobby, we would like to ensure new and existing members have the right information at hand...
I will start with a few suggestions;
1. Flowerhorn hobbyists will always ensure all their fish are correctly labeled whether hybrid or natural species and never passed on or sold with an incorrect label..
2. The Flowerhorn hobby believes aquarium fish should never be released into natural waterways..
3. Flowerhorn hobbyists value both hybrid and natural species and endeavor to preserve both types of fish through responsible fish keeping..
4. If culling is required it will be done in a safe an humane way as recommended by the rspca or veterinarian advice.
5. The Australian flowerhorn hobby is against dying, tattooing or surgical modifaction of any fish.
6. The Australian flowerhorn hobby recommends the use of a high quality diet and is against any food which artificially colour enhances the colour of a fish.


Also, It is our job to educate (never humiliate) fellow members of the hobby, as an educated hobbyist will make educated decisions..
I think in most cases, it's uneducated hobbyists that cause a lot of problems for the Flowerhorn keeper/hobby..
The rest of the problem stems from a lack of ethics in some people..
If we address these issues now and enforce a code of practice/ethics, We will gain credibility for our hobby..
In the end this benefits each and every one of us.."

The code of ethics is an ongoing thread where any new suggestions can be made and added to the code..

Now, enforcing this code is done by reporting any member breaking to code, these members are then spoken to and dealt with.
If they dont not wish to come into line with the code, there offenses are publicly announced, which then deters members from dealing with them..
If its become known that there are very low quality in an area, or being sold at a certain LFS or other website, good quality fish are offered at very competitive rates to that area..
I recently sent a batch of good quality flowerhorn to QLD, as i found out there was only low quality being sold..
Information was sent around about the quality of these fish and people were informed not to buy them, and lfs were told not to buy/sell them..
Good quality was sent there by me personally, and were released at a lesser purchase price than those low grades..
This limited the amount of low grades being able to be sold, they then had to be culled..
This forces the low grade breeders to produce better quality..
Low quality can only be sold if there is no competition, and if people are not educated and buy them due to lack of knowledge...
By educating potential buyers and spreading good quality, this eliminates the low grade FH from the market..
This is just a small example, but i assure you, its not worth doing the wrong thing, as you will soon go out of business..

How do you line breed a flowerhorn to make it a pure species?

The difference (as I see it) is that Aulonocara are known to include pure strains. Flowerhorns are only known to be hybrids. If you line bred a trimac for 30 generations only with other trimacs to look like that fish in your photo then you would call it a trimac, not a flowerhorn. You might point out that by just calling something by a pure strain name it is allowed to be sold here. That is unfortunately correct and part of the reason why the club has such strong opposition to the whole flowerhorn hobby - we are not equipped to be able to differentiate between responsible and irresponsible FH keepers.

Guys, can we keep this thread on the topic of whether FH's should be allowed on PCS or not. It serves no purpose to tell others to piss off if they don't like it.

I could argue that my fish were bred from a naturally occurring species found by Heiko Bleher in panama, which he called " mutants" and were believed to be a cross formed naturally, these fish were then imported..
As they were a cross is the first place the genetic makup allows for a lot of variation in the fry produced, therefor allowing selective breeding and the breed to be refined through selecting certain traits..

I am a responsible fishkeeper, and you dont need to worry about me selling my fish on here, the problem is, some people may do so by advertising as a pure species, as this is a loophole within this forum/club..
As for not being equipped, its hybrid enthusiasts that are equipped with the knowledge of hybrids, these are the members that can help you differentiate between hybrid/pure,
Also, although im not worried if there is sales of Flowerhorn allowed here, but you may find this stops the false advertising of hybrid as pure, and eliminating the problem everyone is so worried about..

I would like to know how you are going to enforce others on selling their fish? seems an unreasonable expectation.
We would also like to see the end of low grade flowerhorns, however our method is to encourage people to stay away from them altogether.
With the number of websites that you have access to that allow you to promote and sell hybrids, why the concerted effort to get this club and forum to change one of its foundation principles to protect the integrity of the species we have available. Is it possible that by doing so you hope to silence those people warning about the dangers it posses. Could it be that you want to access a market to sell your product. Flowerhorns are manufactured to appeal to a certain market. New variations are developed to cater for trends in fashion and support a fad.

Please read above as to how this can be enforced/ensured..
PCS is not encouraging people to stay away from hybrids , or giving people the information they need to make educated decisions, telling people to go elsewhere may only help to send people away from here uneducated, and they then may be the people that go buy low grades and breed the next batch of low grades that flood the market..
I dont want to sell my flowerhorns to members, (although as stated, making good quality available Australia wide benefits everyone, including purists) and my aim is to warn and educate people, as this is something that helps all of us..

Sorry about the lengthy post, but im trying my hardest to get everyone to understand that not allowing flowerhorn is possibly/most likely doing more damage than not allowing them..
i hope ive answered all questions so far..

[bigjohnnofish]

The fact that LG flowerhorns have ruined the Trimac bloodline and now as you state they are being passed as red devils shows the danger hybrids posse. It is why the club stands against them by not allowing their promotion and sale.

I do agree with one point raised. Education is important and we could do more. I do think we need to see more articles on here about the dangers of Hybrids and encourage people to avoid them. We could also petition shops to no longer sell them.

as if thats goint to happen... a fishop will sell whatever fish is in demand....


on the case of low grade flowerhorns... this applies to all fish... if your gonna breed them for resale... get the best possible stock available.... and stop breeding crap fish and sending them out to unsuspecting buyers.... call it line breeding if you want... but serious breeders always bring in new blood if and where possible.... keeping the gene pools good...

[ruffaz]

ive been thinking about this thread over the last couple of days and i think the club need to bring this hybrid argument out of the dark ages i for one dont believe in cross breeding however i think there should be a seperate forum about hybrid talk so people know whats going on what shop or trader is selling what get the information out there so the forum members can make there own informed decesion rather than being taboo and not talking about it i think thats what cichlid presavation should be about haveing the information available rather than not having at all.

[luohanfan]

ive been thinking about this thread over the last couple of days and i think the club need to bring this hybrid argument out of the dark ages i for one dont believe in cross breeding however i think there should be a seperate forum about hybrid talk so people know whats going on what shop or trader is selling what get the information out there so the forum members can make there own informed decesion rather than being taboo and not talking about it i think thats what cichlid preservation should be about haveing the information available rather than not having at all.

I agree, a separate sub-forum would at least give a section for members to share information, and give members the chance to learn all facets and facts about hybrids, and also be informed about the ethical side of keeping/breeding/selling hybrids..
I'm hoping that the silence at the moment means a few members/committee members etc are having a good think about whats been said, and points been raised in this thread..

[Poncho]

You have raised some interesting points and it's good to see that this type of discussion can take place without the antagonistic comments (from both sides of the argument).

I don't see why the PCS should have a sub-forum on hybrids to cover off on the points you've suggested it would be useful for. PCS is a club and forum whose main aim is to promote and educate about naturally occurring cichlid species. There are other forums that cater for hybrids which people can go to if they are interested in these fish. There is a lot of overlap about the ethical side of keeping/breeding and selling hybrids, natural species and all fish or livestock. We cater for this already and as has been demonstrated, discussion of the hybrid issue is allowed here. But why do we need to know about the in's and out's of what makes a FH valuable and what makes it rubbish to understand why it is unethical to sell certain fish under false pretences?

Using your rationale I could request that you place a sub-forum about dwarf cichlids on your site, and one on tangs, one on malawis, one on eartheaters. I don't need to as I already have a community and forum to go to. It begs the question - why are you here banging on about FH's - my instinct tells me it's because you want more people to keep FH's, which therefore takes away from our aim of promoting the responsible keeping of natural cichlid species, because you're promoting a different type of fish to what we are promoting to the same people.

I'm hoping the real reason your here is because you are genuinely trying to stop people getting ripped off with profiteers selling rubbish to misguided hobbyists. IMO this would benefit PCS (and your membership) and I would support you or someone else from the FH lobby group posting a notice as the FH lobby group whenever suspected hybrids labelled as pure breds come onto the market (I am only one vote of the committee though). That gives you recognition of the good work you are trying to do and provides us with relevant information to protect our members from these profiteers.

[Den]

I don't see why the PCS should have a sub-forum on hybrids to cover off on the points you've suggested it would be useful for. PCS is a club and forum whose main aim is to promote and educate about naturally occurring cichlid species. There are other forums that cater for hybrids which people can go to if they are interested in these fish.

Hi Brett, if its our club's aim to soley promote cichlids, then can you please explain why we didnt tell the same thing to the catfish, loach, marine, community, tankbuster and native fish keepers? Clearly the club caters for open discussion on all forms of fish keeping, with the exclusion of a new facet of the cichlid hobby, flowerhorns, ban and sensor catfish discussion and lets see what happens!

The common Bristle nose is a suspected hybrid with many man made mutant varieties available, yet probably the most common catfish discussed and sold on this forum, and poses about as much threat to catfish as the flowerhorn does to cichlids.

From my discussions with various members and sponsors almost every single person I have spoken to disagrees with the clubs hybrid policy. While many of these people may never choose to keep a flowerhorn they still want the chance to be informed about whats happening, especially on a local level, something the PCS forum can uniquely offer, which is why members like me would like to see change.

Cheers
Den

There is no threat from people who are responsible and educated in fish keeping, also modern flowerhorns cannot be mistaken for anything but a flowerhorn. I breed flowerhorns and I would never pass on something mislabellled.

Not promoting, just want to show that my flowerhorns dont really look like trimacs or any other cichlid for that matter(I hope not anyway );

[luohanfan]

You have raised some interesting points and it's good to see that this type of discussion can take place without the antagonistic comments (from both sides of the argument).

I don't see why the PCS should have a sub-forum on hybrids to cover off on the points you've suggested it would be useful for. PCS is a club and forum whose main aim is to promote and educate about naturally occurring cichlid species. There are other forums that cater for hybrids which people can go to if they are interested in these fish. There is a lot of overlap about the ethical side of keeping/breeding and selling hybrids, natural species and all fish or livestock. We cater for this already and as has been demonstrated, discussion of the hybrid issue is allowed here. But why do we need to know about the in's and out's of what makes a FH valuable and what makes it rubbish to understand why it is unethical to sell certain fish under false pretences?

The reason i suggest a subforum is to keep things from being messy.
There tends to be a repetitive situation where members post about flowerhorns on this forum, slanging match's start because purists dont even want to hear the word hybrid uttered, and the threads get closed..
Maybe a lot of people on here dont want to know details about flowerhorns, but it would be smart to educate those that are considering buying one.. (if they buy then breed rubbish, this is the biggest problem for hybrid and pure species enthusiasts alike..)

Using your rationale I could request that you place a sub-forum about dwarf cichlids on your site, and one on tangs, one on malawis, one on eartheaters. I don't need to as I already have a community and forum to go to. It begs the question - why are you here banging on about FH's - my instinct tells me it's because you want more people to keep FH's, which therefore takes away from our aim of promoting the responsible keeping of natural cichlid species, because you're promoting a different type of fish to what we are promoting to the same people.

Your way off here..
I'm here because i have information and knowledge relevant to this issue, and the fact that i appreciate ALL species of fish..
I also respect the decision of hobbyists to keep whichever species they choose, after all, we are all in this hobby because we love keeping fish, regardless of whether it is a goldfish or a great white shark..
If i wanted too, i could be selling flowerhorns on here (already been discussed)
And promoting them, isnt what i have tried to do..
What i have done is suggest that there are better ways to get to your goal than turn people away, (read above) instead you could make information available, and to a point control aspects of the market, limiting threats to pure species..

I'm hoping the real reason your here is because you are genuinely trying to stop people getting ripped off with profiteers selling rubbish to misguided hobbyists. IMO this would benefit PCS (and your membership) and

Low grade Flowerhorns being sold as purebreds only serves to give Flowerhorn enthusiasts a bad name, just as selling any quality flowerhorn for prices way above market value is not ethical, and can give hobbyists a bad name ..

I'm sure you can understand, that although we are on different sides of the fence when it comes to hybrids, i'm only trying to suggest things that i believe will have mutual benefits..

I would support you or someone else from the FH lobby group posting a notice as the FH lobby group whenever suspected hybrids labelled as pure breds come onto the market (I am only one vote of the committee though). That gives you recognition of the good work you are trying to do and provides us with relevant information to protect our members from these profiteers.

I would be more than happy to let this forum know of any hybrids being sold off as pure species on this forum, and any that i hear of within perth, the problem being i am only 1 member..

Oh, and by all means, if you wish to keep sending members elsewhere, please send them to my forum, as we are the only forum dedicated to flowerhorns within Australia, and the only one promoting the ethics i mention..

Ive asked before without answer, May i leave a link so you can send people to the right place rather than sending them off without knowledge or to a place that does have ethics in place?

[ruffaz]

you aksed why should you the pcs have a subforum?

what we as a comunity have to rember is that not every one is knowlegble and as a club pcs should be about teaching less knowlegble aquarist

i dont know how this got pushed on to fh discussion but i realy liked the fact we can discuss this in a adult matter as well there is hope for us all arfter all

[bradfitzy]

Hi Brett, if its our club's aim to soley promote cichlids, then can you please explain why we didnt tell the same thing to the catfish, loach, marine, community, tankbuster and native fish keepers? Clearly the club caters for open discussion on all forms of fish keeping, with the exclusion of a new facet of the cichlid hobby, flowerhorns, ban and sensor catfish discussion and lets see what happens!

This is not the clubs sole aim at all it is just 1 of them.
As for the other species that you mention if any of them were hybrids then the same rules would aply that do to FH.
At the end of the day no matter which way you look at it FH are hybrids.
We do not allow the sale or promotion of hybrids very simple.
Like i said before , if you want the rules changed then get it bought up at an agm (either in person or as a letter addressed to the pcs cm ) and it will be voted on by pcs club members at the agm.
Just remember that that motions for rule changes and votes on these changes will only be accepted from pcs club members.

Brad.

[Den]

OK thanks Brad, appreciate your help.

I will be arranging a letter for the next agm, and since the majority of club members do not attend meetings and rely on this forum for information and communication amongst each other I would greatly appreciate if you could direct me to information regarding proxy voting protocol accepted by the committee, so that all members have a chance to be heard on this issue.

Non members reading this should note; if you want a chance to have a voice and help to change the PCS hybrid policy in a way that will allow free discussion here, well nows the time to join the PCS and be heard!

alternatively if you believe that flowerhorns truely are a threat to the hobby and that the best way to deal with them is to continue to censor discussion as per the current hybrid policy then join the club and vote against my proposal.

Details of my proposal;
My proposal is to change the hybrid policy in a way that allows free and open discussion of hybrids including flowerhorns in the discussion areas of the forum, they are cichlids so I see no reason why they cannot be discussed in cichlid discussion areas, or if neccessary the creation of a subforum, I believe the committee should best decide this detail. I would not be proposing the allowing of selling of flowerhorns on the forum. The only aim of my proposal is to give members the chance to become more informed and knowledgable about this area of the aquarium hobby, through being able to discuss and share information on the subject of hybrids and flowerhorns here at a local level.

Cheers
Den

[Poncho]

if its our club's aim to soley promote cichlids, then can you please explain why we didnt tell the same thing to the catfish, loach, marine, community, tankbuster and native fish keepers? Clearly the club caters for open discussion on all forms of fish keeping, with the exclusion of a new facet of the cichlid hobby, flowerhorns, ban and sensor catfish discussion and lets see what happens!

I didn't say it was our aim to solely promote cichlids. We also aim to promote responsible fishkeeping in general. We don't cater for every form of fishkeeping or promote ourselves to do so We clearly don't cater for hybrids for instance and actually have a policy in place not to promote them. Why are you asking me questions you already know the answer to?

The common Bristle nose is a suspected hybrid with many man made mutant varieties available, yet probably the most common catfish discussed and sold on this forum, and poses about as much threat to catfish as the flowerhorn does to cichlids.

Like I explained above with teh Aulonocara, suspected hybrid isn't enough to warrant a ban. Again, why are you asking questions you already know the answer to? I don't fully understand luohanfan's explanation in regards to the Heiko mutant analogy but whether a hybrid is created in the wild or in an aquarium, it is subject to our policy.

From my discussions with various members and sponsors almost every single person I have spoken to disagrees with the clubs hybrid policy. While many of these people may never choose to keep a flowerhorn they still want the chance to be informed about whats happening, especially on a local level, something the PCS forum can uniquely offer, which is why members like me would like to see change.

I would suggest that the actual amount of club emmbers you have had discussions with about this issue is quite limited as you have successfully alienated yourself from a very large group of people here due to other debates. I have a complete opposite experience with discussions I've had with club members and having attended 95% of club meetings and events over the past 4 years, I reckon I would have a better understanding of what club members actually want. However, this is a completely useless angle that you pursue with this debate. If you want to invoke change of the policy, there are ways in which you can do this. You haven't been prevented form doing so, in fact you've been invited several times to do so and even been shown by committee members how to do it, even though they oppose your suggestions. However, you've constantly accused committee of censoring you and not allowing you to share your opinions - that doesn't add up to me. I welcome a formal proposition from you so that we can clearly see what the membership wants. I hope then that we can come to a conclusion with this debate - I think everyone wants this.

There is no threat from people who are responsible and educated in fish keeping, also modern flowerhorns cannot be mistaken for anything but a flowerhorn. I breed flowerhorns and I would never pass on something mislabellled.

I know you are no threat and would never sell mislabelled fish. I had fish dealings with you several times and each experience has been positive from my perspective. I know you care about pure species like Satanoperca and various other americans and keeping them pure. But I hope that if we do have a vote that you will accept whatever the majority says and stop claiming that committee is waging an unjust campaign against FHs.

Sorry Luohanfan, I will read your post later and address and address any questions directed at me later too. Survivor is nearly on and even though some say it's lame, I can't get enough of it. But a quick answer to your unanswered question - no you cannot provide a link, simply because it is against current policy. You can challenge the policy but you can't breach it.

[Terry]

Den
The PCS is a society which uses this forum as a means of communicating with its members, we also invite people who are not members to use the forum free of charge. We only ask that they abide by the terms and conditions of the forum, the non financial members here are not bound by the PCS Constitution.
We are a society with a forum not a forum with a society, this has been said many times in the past and some people cant get their heads around it.
You are proposing to change the Constitution to allow hybrids on the forum. There is nothing in the Constitution about the forum, the rules on the forum are made and ammended by a Committee which is elected by the financial members at the AGM.
If you are proposing that the Constitution is changed so that it governs the forums as well as the society you will need to look at all aspects of the forums, you cannot single out a pet subject.

[tranced]

oh dear

[Terry]

Thanks Tranced
That pic made my day

[Den]

Brett thankyou for your considerate response, my questions were meant to be somewhat rhetorical, sorry for my poor wording.

I would suggest that the actual amount of club emmbers you have had discussions with about this issue is quite limited as you have successfully alienated yourself from a very large group of people here due to other debates. I have a complete opposite experience with discussions I've had with club members and having attended 95% of club meetings and events over the past 4 years.

is this about the dogs or the GW sharks? Hey if members dont want to change the outdated hybrid policy and keep censorship in place thats fine, just think there needs to be a fair chance to give members a say on the issue.

Den
The PCS is a society which uses this forum as a means of communicating with its members, we also invite people who are not members to use the forum free of charge. We only ask that they abide by the terms and conditions of the forum, the non financial members here are not bound by the PCS Constitution. We are a society with a forum not a forum with a society, this has been said many times in the past and some people cant get their heads around it.
You are proposing to change the Constitution to allow hybrids on the forum. There is nothing in the Constitution about the forum, the rules on the forum are made and ammended by a Committee which is elected by the financial members at the AGM.
If you are proposing that the Constitution is changed so that it governs the forums as well as the society you will need to look at all aspects of the forums, you cannot single out a pet subject.
I will also remind you that the forums are privately owned and the owner donates all of this free of charge. If he dosen't like your proposal he might say no.

Thanks Terry for this interesting information, Im sure other members will also be interested to know the extent of say that we have as members.

The forum is the club for the majority of members. I didnt realise the club did not own its own forum, I guess I will need to make more enquiries to see if we can have a members vote on the issue.

Cheers
Den

[Terry]

My mistake Den
The forum is owned by the pcs it is the server that is donated and he does not have a say in the running of the forum

[Den]

OK thanks Terry, but from what I still understand in your post, that any changes to the forum will still come down to a committee decision?

[tranced]

!!!!

[Terry]

Den
Every decision on the forum is made by the Committee it's one of the jobs we are elected to do, the minor topics are discussed on the Committee forum or held over until the next Committee meeting. The topic is voted on and we go with whatever the majority decides, sometimes we don't always get what we want. IE I wanted this thread removed but I was out voted. On rare occasions we have financial members asking for a decision on something, this is always discussed and then voted on.

As you know the Committee is elected at the AGM, the PCS is hard pressed to get enough nominations to fill the positions this results in the Committee elected unoposed. If financial members do not like what we are doing we encourage them to nominate for the vacant positions. I have been on the Committee for about 14 years, most of the time I put up my hand because nobody else wanted to, I informed the Committee 2 weeks ago that I will not be standing for any Committee positions next year, so instead of whinging about how evil we are nominate for the job. As always there will be 10 vacant positions.