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Any1 See Q&a Last Night With Dawkins?


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#1 Den

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 08:57 PM

Did anyone notice that massive contradiction last night on Q&A?

Dawkins really emphasised that the question of God is a very important "scientific question" because if God or intelligent design was proven true it would require humanity to rethink much about our current scientific understanding of existence, Dawkins and the rest of the panel immediately followed up with Intelligent design should not be taught in science classes.

Would the study of invisible forces such as gravity, sonar, x rays, radio waves, etc have ever been discovered if these subjects were pushed outside of science simply because they are also beyond the scope of human sensory perception?

Its dissapointing to see everyone again jump on the mindless drone band wagon and push intelligent design into religious classes, where it has less chance to be studied thouroughly and questioned objectively. Because of so much silly religious dogma clouding the subject of intelligent design it seems mainstream society has developed either a fear or ignorance on the subject of creation, a situation which makes it political suicide to suggest that we should as a society take a look at the possibility of something deeper than the very shallow view which evolution theory offers on the subject of lifes meaning and the inspiration beind existence. Maybe the subject should just be on its own, outside of religion and science, can I humbly make the suggestion we make intelligent design a new subject of study and call it Relience.


Cheers
Den smile.gif

#2 Jezza

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 09:59 PM

ask them to explain how the eye evolved...
they can't - the eye is too complex for it to have been evolved (i'm not a scientist, so don't ask me to explain...)
this is just one example...

i hate it they way that these people just shove away anything that they cannot explain or understand...
if they can't prove the God exists and the He created all things, then they just say that it can't be so...

now i can't prove that God exists, all i have is my faith...
but no one can prove that He doesn't exists either...

#3 ado

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 10:23 PM

Hey Den,

I didn't see the interview...that would have been interesting.

There are some very interesting books written in response to Dawkins' The God Delusion, from both theistic and atheistic perspectives...worth a read

Ado


#4 Donna

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 10:34 PM

Hi Ado,

You can watch it on the web, I started, but I ran out of time and didn't complete my viewing. Many of my friends are followers of Dawkin's as he is an active atheist and so are they.

Regards,

Donna

#5 Donna

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 10:53 PM

Hi everyone,

If the evolution of the eye can't be proved, then it can't be assumed that it didn't evolve, or equally that it was intelligent design. However, these kinds of myths pop up from time to time. I am sure the evolution of the eye is clear as well as why some people are colour blind. These people are not abominations from God, they are natural variations.

http://www.pbs.org/w...1/l_011_01.html

I fail to understand why you need to be in any camp. I fail to understand why people have to have "faith". What is going on? Why is it not possible simply to "be?"
To take what comes your way, to accept your mortality and get over it. Every other living being has been born, and will die. The in between is what you are given. Can someone out there please explain why you have to have your existence validated outside of being in the here and now and doing your best, and pardon my French, being shit scared of dying? If a cabbage has been intelligently designed, what faith does it have? It has no more or less been intelligently designed than you have. The only difference being, it is not aware of it's own mortality.

Honestly, religion is common across humanity because we are aware of our own mortality and shit scared of dying, this is the common denominator. If God existed why wouldn't he/she be evident as the same entity across all cultures? Please don't tell me there is one "true" faith and that some humans have more access to this than others because it is not logical.

I feel quite secure in knowing I am born, and I will die. Death will be like it was before I was born, and my offspring that is genetically successful will be my legacy and my immortality. If this is so wrong, someone please correct me. Moral development is more than possible in the absence of God. I know many people who are actively involved in improving outcomes for humanity in the absence of believing they have been "intelligently designed" or will recieve rewards in heaven, often more so than those who have faith, or their own personal Jesus.

Can somebody please explain exactly what it is you have faith in? Further to that, is God necessary to feel that?

Regards,

Donna

#6 Cawdor

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 11:31 PM

QUOTE (Jezza @ Mar 9 2010, 09:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
ask them to explain how the eye evolved...
they can't - the eye is too complex for it to have been evolved (i'm not a scientist, so don't ask me to explain...)
this is just one example...

Actually the eye and its evolution has been studied extensively and is a good example of evolution, because of its imperfections and different stages it is currently present in lifeforms. You think that if it was "intelligently designed", it would be perfect and all beings would have the same eyes. It is far from that. Wikipedia for some basic info:
http://en.wikipedia....tion_of_the_eye
You say you're not a scientist (fair enough), but dismiss an entire field of study with one statement you don't support by any evidence.
That is the difference between science and dogma - science is based on observed facts, repeatable experiments and peer review. It is subject to change and scientific theories are reviewed, dismissed or expanded based on new discoveries. Religious dogma is set in stone, unchangeable and unchallengeable. People with strong religious views often apply this static view of the world when discussing science - they say "this cannot be so" without any evidence whatsoever, because it clashes with their belief.

QUOTE (Jezza @ Mar 9 2010, 09:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
now i can't prove that God exists, all i have is my faith...
but no one can prove that He doesn't exists either...

And that is fine, you have your beliefs and if they make you happy then good for you. It is not up to others to disprove what you believe though - it is up to you to prove the existence of something you want others to believe in. You can't disprove to existence of the flying spaghetti monster (http://www.venganza.org/), that does not mean it exists.

I don't particularly like Dawkins because his attitude is almost religious in its intensity and closed mindedness. Almost like "if you don't believe everything I say you're a dumb person who is my enemy".

#7 Donna

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 07:08 AM

I don't particularly like Dawkins because his attitude is almost religious in its intensity and closed mindedness. Almost like "if you don't believe everything I say you're a dumb person who is my enemy".

Good point Tim.



#8 theonetruepath

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 07:51 AM

QUOTE (Donna @ Mar 10 2010, 07:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't particularly like Dawkins because his attitude is almost religious in its intensity and closed mindedness. Almost like "if you don't believe everything I say you're a dumb person who is my enemy".

Good point Tim.


Heh. That's what I like about him the most!

OK seriously, he just might be the most boring person on the planet simply because nothing exists for him outside of his crusade. His interview with Denton showed this up because Denton doesn't delve into his interviewees area of expertise but tries to show up their humanity, and he has spent decades sealing himself off from what he calls quote mining and deliberate misunderstanding, to the point that he thinks about almost nothing else when meeting someone. But I see him as a 'necessary evil' to try and correct the abomination called 'Intelligent Design' in our society. His book The Greatest Show on Earth is a great read and gives all the quotes necessary for anyone who doesn't want to learn the field in detail, to stop an ID arguer in their tracks. While imparting a good understanding of same I should add.

I don't envy his obsession. but I'm sure glad he's on my side.

#9 DeRrO

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 08:01 AM

Dawkins love's selling books... wink.gif

#10 ado

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 08:20 AM

The problem with Dawkins is that he is as fanatical and fundamentalist about his own faith (atheism) as those religous folks whom he is attacking are in theirs.

Have a read of a few reviews of his latest book (or read the book yourself)!
Here's one: Clicky

Both Tim and DeRro raise important points. Dawkins is just another pseudo-celebrity travelling the writer's circuit.

I'd love to discuss some of the points you raise up Donna, but I'm not sure if that will be hijacking Den's thread.

After you have read Dawkins' The God Delusion, I suggest the book The Dawkins Delusion?: Atheist Fundamentalism and the Denial of the Divine by Alister McGrath.

Also two other interesting books are: Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris and the response by Douglas Wilson Letter from a Christian Citizen

ado

#11 Jaraqui

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 12:12 PM

QUOTE (Cawdor @ Mar 9 2010, 11:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't particularly like Dawkins because his attitude is almost religious in its intensity and closed mindedness. Almost like "if you don't believe everything I say you're a dumb person who is my enemy".

QUOTE (ado @ Mar 10 2010, 08:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The problem with Dawkins is that he is as fanatical and fundamentalist about his own faith (atheism) as those religous folks whom he is attacking are in theirs.

Sorry, but I don't understand what you guys are actually discussing. The word faith, requires him to have a belief in something without evidence. He does not require this. Richard Dawkins is a firm atheist, who has devoted his life to Darwinism. How can he not be sure of what he has been studying for most of his life? There is no room for interpritation in what he believes. He cannot say, for example, "Whales have evolved though Humans were created by God". Many religions state firm rules with no room to maneuver, though Richard Dawkins is not allowed to be firm about the facts as he sees them? To refute an argument, you must first have knowledge of it. Richard has thoroughly studied both sides of the arguement, in order to choose a side.

There is a common misconception that Richard Dawkins is too egotistical to acknowledge other information that may directly conflict with his own, however this is absolutely untrue. He has stated numerous times that as a scientist, you can never be absolutely certain about anything. If he is presented with factual evidence of the God the religions have portrayed, he will take these into account. So far, there is a burning bush.

Not believing in a different form of life (a more evolved or technologically advanced entity), is being arrogant. Believing in the God the religions have portrayed (a divine, omnipotent being, who listens to prayers and created the universe) is being stupid.

#12 ado

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 12:34 PM

Sorry mate, I don't understand what your trying to say. Perhaps you could rephrase a little?

And I'd be particulary interested in what you mean here:
QUOTE
Not believing in a different form of life (a more evolved or technologically advanced entity), is being arrogant. Believing in the God the religions have portrayed (a divine, omnipotent being, who listens to prayers and created the universe) is being stupid


#13 Den

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 03:28 PM



At the the 5minute 6second mark , Dawkins quotes " I think the existence of a supreme or supernatural being is an important scientific issue", only later to state he believes the subject of intelligent design belongs outside of science.

The eye has been shown that it is possible to evolve, starting from light sensitive cells, anyway I believe there is a tougher one:

I have been searching for information on the evolution of metamorphisis, to my understanding the theory of evolution does not lend itself to the process of metamorphisis. i.e. animals such as butterflies, moths, flies, beetles which create a coccoon in order to turn themselves into a cellular soup and competely reshape themselves in many cases into a completely different animal.

How did a maggot evolve to be able to cocoon itself, turn into cellular soup, and then transform itself into a fly? laugh.gif If someone can show me this fitting in with evolution theory I will finally submit and adopt the theory of evolution in my beliefs, even still I will not disgard other possibilies which may exist in tandem with the theory of evolution, such as an intelligent designing force or supreme being.


While pausing and searching for Dawkins quote I came across this pose in the vid.


Cheers
Den smile.gif

#14 Donna

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 04:39 PM


Hi Den,

I think the metamorphosis question is the easiest question you have asked. These animals life cycles can be compared to that of a human embryo which starts with gills etc. It is just that for the most part, the metamorphosis takes place inside the body and the stages are not viable on their own outside the body. Everything starts as something other than how it turns out smile.gif

Metamorphosis is just another example of how organisms have evolved and "hedged their bets" in survival the stakes. They also provide food for other animals at different stages of their development, making it the perfect arrangement. You will note that at only one stage of the cycle is the animal sexually viable. This is the actual viable organism, the others are just juvenile stages of the adult.

Regards,

Donna

#15 Cawdor

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 04:41 PM

I found this, which was written in 2000, so the article it references was released 1999.

*********************
The process of metamorphosis has long been touted by creationist to be definitive proof that evoution cannot be correct, because it is too complex, and there are no possible intermediates. There are fundamental flaws in their argument, but I will stick to the question at hand.

It is true that metamorphosis has stumped many scientists for quite some time. But in fact, in September of last year an article was published in Nature, a scientific journal, by two scientists, JW. Truman and LM. Riddiford, that dealt with the problem. Here is the abstract of the article, which is titled, "The origins of insect metamorphosis."

"Insect metamorphosis is a fascinating and highly successful biological adaptation, but there is much uncertainty as to how it evolved. Ancestral insect species did not undergo metamorphosis and there are still some existing species that lack metamorphosis or undergo only partial metamorphosis. Based on endocrine studies and morphological comparisons of the development of insect species with and without metamorphosis, a novel hypothesis for the evolution of metamorphosis is proposed. Changes in the endocrinology of development are central to this hypothesis. The three stages of the ancestral insect species-pronymph, nymph and adult-are proposed to be equivalent to the larva, pupa and adult stages of insects with complete metamorphosis. This proposal has general implications for insect developmental biology."

Decoding that can be a little bit tricky. What it says is that the original state for insects was to not undergo metamorphosis, but to gradually change from a pronymph to a nymph then to the adult. What happened was that at some point, changes in the hormones of the insects caused them no longer to develop in such a steady fashion, but to develop in bursts. So the new, metamophosing insects would stay the same for a while, then suddenly change, instead of gradually changing all the time.

Why is that an advantage for the insect? When you have an insect that has, for example, two forms, like a caterpillar and a moth, the two stages are so completely different that they no longer compte with each other. The moth eats nectar, and the caterpillar eats leaves. There is no competition between the two, as there would be in a continually developing insect that ate both at some point. This lessening of interspecies competition was a great help in allowing the species to propogate itself. Along with the lessening of the competition was teh ability to take ofver new niches. A caterpillar and a butterfly could occupy different places in teh ecosystem - this allowed for great diversification - another thing that has helped insects becoms so succesful.

So insects that developed metamorphosis really did have a great advantage over those that didnt. But we still have insects that do not undergo metamorphosis, and we also have something of an intermediate between the two, called incomplete metamorphosis, that could concievably be a linker between the two - something the creationists dont want to hear at all.

Ill give you the complete reference to the article I quoted above, so you can go look it up at the nearest university if you want. Ill also give you a web page that gives a different explanation, and more info in general.

I hope that answered you question, and thanks for using the Mad Scientist Network!


Unique Identifier:
99447037

Authors:
Truman JW. Riddiford LM.

Institution:
Department of Zoology, University of Washington, Seattle 98195-1800, USA. jwt@u.washington.edu

Title:
The origins of insect metamorphosis.

Source:
Nature 401(6752):447-52, 1999 Sep 30.

ISSN 0028-0836
**************************



#16 Donna

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 05:05 PM

Yeah, well said Tim. I condensed that by saying "hedging their bets" in terms of the habitats that can be occupied by each stage, and the fact that each stage is not in direct competition with each other etc, points that have been made far more eloquently by you, and also backed up with some really relevant research.

You have raised another really important point, and that is the premise that if adaptation takes place for an organism then that adaption should be of some advantage to the organism. This to me is crucial, and explains extinction to a certain extent, as well as succession and evolution.

I also like the way you started by pointing out that creationists (for want of a better term) always bring up the same arguments in an attempt to defend their ideas. The eye was a good example, and a quick bang around the web quickly revealed that metamorphosis is another. LOL many appear on websites with pics of the Bible or such promotional material. Accompanied with text saying, "Oh look, we have found yet another thing that science can not explain!"

I still fail to understand how evolution can not exist in the presence of God? I think metamorphosis has been taken care of as being able to be explained by the evoloutionary process, can someone please explain to me why God can not still be at work given that change is the only constant? Many religions are quite comfortable with evolution. Why do some extremists feel that this issue is the one thing to disprove the very "in progress" facts on evolution? Or that God's existence or non existence hinges on this issue?

I enjoyed reading your post Tim, and it has added another dimension to my thoughts.

As for pointing out a contradiction in what Dawkins said, let's not get started on the contradictions in the Bible, which was, incidentally written by men (not many women contributors) over a lot of centuries in many different languages.

Regards,

Donna

#17 Cawdor

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 05:26 PM

Just a note to point out that my last post was a reference and not written by me, everything between the ********************* lines was written by someone else smile.gif

#18 Donna

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 05:35 PM

Indeed, quite a talent though to find something that relates to the argument, contributes in a non hysterical way, and is informative and educative at the same time.

I learned something I didn't already know, and was able to connect the new information with prior knowledge, which has lead to a fresh take.

Thanks smile.gif

Donna

#19 Jaraqui

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 05:59 PM

So I take it then you now believe in evolution and have adopted it into your beliefs, Den? laugh.gif

#20 Den

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 06:01 PM

Hi Tim

Thanks, I read that article, but it does not cleary explain the evolutionary steps taken to reach or achieve such a drastic transformation, it works on complete presumptions, and does not come anywhere near proving metamorphisis resulted through an evolutionary process.

Then we must ask why metamorphisis only exists in the insect world?, surely it would be advantagous for humans to cocoon themselves and jump from child to adult over a few days or weeks, just think we could wipe out all the dangerous adolescent period of our lives and improve our chances of survival.

Cheers
Den smile.gif




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