123 replies to this topic

[werdna]

I am getting solar panels installed on the 28th.
Can't wait! and they have come down HEAPS since the $8000 rebate first started.

I am getting 12 x 190w panels so on a perfect day with full sun, no breeze, 25 deg and the panels facing the sun perfectly in perfect lab conditions I will be getting 2280w!
Plugged into a Aurora 3.6kw transformerless inverter. I was going to get an SMA as I prefer them, but they have a backorder with no set arrival date, but from what I have researched, the Aurora seems to be very similar.
And then if I want to add more panels it is currently around $600 per panel installed, and no need to upgrade inverter.

Anyone else bite the green bullet on here?

My next task is to change all remaining globes to energy savers, then all my downlights to 9w LEDs.
If anyone is interested in upgrading downlights too, when I place my order I might do a mass group buy to try get 100+ buy pricing.
And build my shed finally with good insulation and get all tanks in there to reduce heating costs, which is the sole reason for wanting a fish shed... HA!

Andrew

[tranced]

good on you!

[MrOrange]

Hi Werdna, out of interest, what was it worth all up?

[werdna]

Just over $5k installed.

[MrOrange]

Cool thanks for that. Did you come across any good resources online that detail the costs involved, such as cost of systems, applicable government rates, expected rate of return (repayment period of investment) and feed in rates?

Wouldn't mind exploring the option of panels, but haven't found a really good online resource to research it. So far most of the sites I come across are mostly marketing fluff.

Thanks.

[werdna]

I found a few, just cant remember any of them.
Apparently on an average day a 1.5kw system in Perth will generate around 7-8kw.
The Aurora is one of the most efficient inverters at 96.8%, SMA is 97%. I went transformerless as they are more efficient, there is less chance of coil hum, quieter, and better at handling low wattages when outside the 10-2 window, drawback being they are slightly more expensive.
Give me 2 months and I will tell you exactly what I get out of my system!
The government got rid of the grant, and gives you 5 times the renewable energy certificates for the first 1.5kw now.
So you get less money back, ours was $6200, but with the reduction in costs since the $8000 grant it is still cheaper.
Also synergy is bringing out a renewable energy buyback scheme, which being synergy is a bit of a scam imo, but in theory will get you more money for the excess energy you produce from oct - mar.
I went with solar gain, all their package prices are on their website.
But I would stay away from the chinese inverters, I have seen how they make their tvs, so wouldnt trust their inverters, and they european ones aren't that much more expensive.
Rate of return is difficult to calclate, everyone is going on about how power costs are going to increase, but at the current 16c p/kw to buy, at 7kw generated per day, It would take me about 13 years to pay them off, so dont expect to be rolling in money anytime soon!
But with synergys REBS scheme, between oct and mar you get 29.06 p/kw generated during peak time of 11-5.
But I figure that I am trying to do my little bit to reduce my carbon footprint, and if everyone put a system up, verve could probably turn off their coal power plants for about 4 hours a day.
And alot of people criticise the panels, but it is alot easier to sit on your fat arse complaining about how crap things are then to actually try to be a little proactive!

Andrew

[nick05]

If they really wanted to encourage it they wouldn't make you pay tax on the energy you collect
I don't know that for fact, but it was on the radio the other day, so it MUST be true!

[werdna]

Thats interesting.
I dont see how that is so?

Guess I will see!

But like I said, easy to criticise!
Its like the people that say "I wont buy a prius cos the batteries that are fitted in them produce more greenhouse gas during production than they save in the 10 years they last", and then jump in their v8 family sedan to drive themself 2 minutes down the road to buy a bottle of milk!
If they really wanted to make a difference they would get a smaller car, or atleast get the v6, but noooo we have to have the ability to get to 250kph and do a 12sec 1/4 mile.
End of rant!

A lot of things are quite easy to change without even getting solar panels.
For the last billing period we made an effort to reduce our power consumption.
We didnt unplug appliances from the wall, cos IMO that is stupid, (you'll save about 16c per year) but made an effort to turn lights off, open blinds instead of turning ligts on in the morning and afternoon, turn tv off when not watching... all the obvious and easy stuff.
Our bill was reduced by about 800 units, thats $120.
Now you use that $120 to buy energy saving lights that the fat arse whingers say are too expensive, and next time you save a bit more money.
The cycle continues...
Now I just need to find a way to pump 5000lph through my sumps without using the 81w per hour pumps, which is (.081x24x365x.1601) costing me $114 a year per sump (I have 2)... hmmmm

[giz]

My pensioner neighbours have solar power installed. The power that is sent back to the grid for credit, is classed as income and therefore they have to declare it as income and be taxed on it accordingly. Also when we had the storm the power was out for 19 hours here and they were in the dark just like the rest of us because they cant afford to buy the batteries.
Food for thought

Nikki

[werdna]

Are you sure it is classed as an income? Or is that just another rumour?
I would think that with it being credited to your account it wouldnt be an income.
And if it is classed as an income, then technically you can claim the whole purchase as a capital expense and claim depreciation on the system.
So I personally would be a very happy chap if I had to declare the income, and would recommend it to everyone!
And atleast when the power is out you know you are not wasting any!

[werdna]

The power that is sent back to the grid for credit, is classed as income and therefore they have to declare it as income and be taxed on it accordingly.

Sorry Nikki, but whoever told you this is wrong. Probably another one of the critics who think the best way to act is to do nothing and think up criticisms.
In 2002 the ATO had a private ruling about this, and found that generating power from home is classed as a hobby as it isn't done with a commercial interest, therefore not a taxable income. Same reason why we don't have to declare money made, including store credits, from keeping fish at home.
The ruling was to see if the panels could be claimed as a capital expense, which they can't.

Andrew

[giz]

http://www.news.com....9-1225858168868

The letter, confirms the social security income test applies to any money he receives from an electricity company "either as a direct payment or as a credit or rebate on a person's electricity bill".

[werdna]

That is actually based on the centrelink pension income test, and as much it is really CRAP! Income generated by a solar install on your private residence is not classed as an income by the ATO, I just called and checked!
They have had a ruling on it which carries for 5 years from the start of the 09 tax year.

[Den]

Just wondering how much carbon it takes to produce and transport a complete solar system and put that up against the amount of carbon it saves in its life time?

I have doubts that these solar systems make any significant environmental benefit when you consider the amount of energy it takes to rip all the raw materials out from the ground, and then manufacture, transport and instal the finished product.

I looked at this possibility last year and I found that not only are these systems not finacially feasable I dont think they are envirnomentally feasable.

My personal feeling is that current solar technology is not worthy of our hard earned dollars, as for me Im gonna sit on my skinny fat ass until something decent comes on the market, I think wind is a much better looking option for Perth, just need a decent system to come out on the market.

Andrew this reminds me of the Southpark episide when Stans parents buy a hybrid car, jump on a high horse, move to San francisco and start sniffing their own farts.

Cheers
Den

[werdna]

Sorry I sound that way Den!
I'll let you know when I start sniffing my own farts!
I just get frustrated with people who constantly criticise those who try, but can't come up with any ideas themselves.
I was really impressed with the difference that being really conscious of usage made tho.

I agree with you about the wind power. And I looked into that first. 2 things stopped me tho.
1) the wife thought it looked ugly on the roof.
2) the council weren't too impressed with the idea of a wind turbine on the roof. Stupid councils.
And the whirring noise on the roof would be frustrating.

[Den]

I heard in advertising that the windspire which is a vertical fan based on an ancient Egyption design dont make any noise, however I have never seen one working in the flesh, only on video, the downfall is the height requirement needed to catch clean wind, though if we could get used to ugly electricity poles and wires everywhere I figure we could get used to having these around too.

[Poncho]

In terms of the carbon footprint for extracting raw materials for and transporting solar panels, I can't see this as being too much greater than the carbon footprint for extracting, processing and transporting fossil fuels. The fossil fuels then get burnt and produce even more carbon so, without looking into it in depth, I can't see how fossil fuels could be on par with solar power. I've heard people say before that photovoltaics don't actually reduce carbon footprints and I wonder if that stems from rumours generated by oil and gas companies trying to protect themselves from competition.

The other thing is that photovoltaics is actually becoming economically feasible, particularly if you consider the expected rise of cost of electricity over the next few years. Complementing this is the steady decline in capital required to set up your photovoltaic system due to an increasing demand creating better economies of scale. This consumer investment in the industry will also allow (hopefully) R&D to improve efficiency of panels and develop the technology further. It's still a long term investment and you're not going to make your money back in two or three years but the gap is closing.

Solar and wind are both feasible options for the Perth region. We are the windiest city on the planet and we have ample amount of sunlight and space for panels to harvest it. I'd like to see more integrated systems become available i.e. a standard package where you get 1.5kW of panels and a 1.0kW wind turbine. That way your set for all types of weather - we hardly get an overcast, still day so you'd always be producing power.

[werdna]

I read a book of this at uni when I was first thinking of installing panels, but do you think I can find anyting about it?!
Something about the impact that solar panel manufacturing has on the environment, as I had heard what you said have said before Den.
But it stated that solar panels are made in the same places that lcd are made, and if you add up the green house gas emitted during production of the panels, including the equivalent gas produced by the coal power plant to make the electricity, you would find that over a panels effective life of 20 years (considered minimum), a coal power plant produces MINIMUM 30 times more gas per kilowatt than a panel.
And the book was written around 2006.
Think about how much more efficient the panels are now.

I find it very difficult to believe that a solar panel produces the same amount of greenhouse gas as a coal power plant, which is known as one of the worst forms of power generation.

[Den]

Just wanted to clarify that the calculation isnt solar vs coal plant, but how much dirty energy does it take to make a solar panel vs the amount of clean energy that solar panel can produce in its lifetime.

I found this report below, it claims that carbon savings for panels takes about 2-3 years, but from what I can see this is just the panel, does not include things like transport & assembly.

http://www.solarbus....s/pvpayback.pdf

Cheers
Den

[werdna]

And you believe that the transportation and assembly increases the environmental damage to make them not worthwhile over their life?
Isnt any decrease in pollution a good thing?

Also that report is 10 years old, do you not think that things may have improved in that time with increased efficiency with production quantities, technology etc?