(1) No, evolution does not mean the dedmise of one animal while another takes it's place. it is nowhere near as simple or direct as that, it is a continual process taking place over many many generations to allow an organism to adapt to suit it's environment, which over time has led to the emergence of organisms which bare little resemblance to the originals. However by examining DNA scientists are able to get some idea of the origins of what we see today.
(2) Very very true... it is man's interpretation (or misinterpretation rather) of religious texts, and the twisting of those interpretations to suit their own needs, that has led to war, famine, poverty, destruction, rape, murder etc etc. Religion itself is not to blame, and anyone who thinks so only needs to read the texts themselves to see that there is no passange in the Koran, the Bible or any other 'holy text' that says "You should grab the biggest, baddest gun you can find and use it to force your religion on your neighbours"
(3) No offence, but to me, this entire statement is rubbish. You are saying that because I have chosen not to believe in Christianity, I can not have a good life? You can choose to believe whatever you like, and if for you that provides whatever it is you need to feel happy and fulfilled, congratulations. But do NOT try to tell me that not believe in it is going to make my life somehow worse. And to say that schools will teach "all others but not Christianity" is also rubbish: Have you ever heard of a public school teaching the Koran? or readings from buddhist scripture? The public school system does not teach any form of religion because it is such a sensitive topic and so many religious people are intolerant of other religions. How happy would you be if your son or daughter came home from school preaching the teachings of Mohammed? Probably no more so than if a muslim child preaching the virtues of christianity I'd imagine... Religion is a very personal issue which has no place in schools, it is for families and religious groups to teach those who choose to be a part of that group, not to be crammed into the head of every child.
In response to the comment "christianity will change our society for the good" I would suggest you go and ask the people who have been persecuted for not being christian just how good a christian society can be. Ask the daughter who has been cast out by her parents for getting pregnant, ask the wife who has been divorced because her husband "found god" but couldnt convince her of the benefit to attending church 3 times a week, ask the people who's homes have been burned and their families killed because they did not believe in christianity. Religion, any religion, is dangerous if allowed to become too powerful and there is countless PROOF of this throughout the ages.
(4) I disagree with "because it is written people tend not to believe it" .. I don't think that there is any weight at all in this statement. Who have you met that has said they choose not to believe in the bible's teachings because it has been written down? I think you will find quite the opposite is true. I for one would rather trust historical information that has been recorded, rather than passed by word of mouth through generations.
(5) Where is this proof. You show me PROOF and I will believe, or at least show me enough evidence to convince me and I will also believe. To say that "it is this way because God made it this way, what other explanation could there be?" does not provide any form of proof but rather just another theory.
(6) I agree wholeheartedly here and it is for this reason that I do feel that religion does have a place in our society, but that place is for every person to decide for themselves, not for any person or institution to force upon others
(7) Atheism has done, and continues to do, one significant good thing for society as a whole: It encourages people to look for another reason, to search for the answer to questions. To a true believer anything can be explained away with "It is that way because God intends it to be that way." For the Atheist, obviously this is unacceptable and they will (if they are so inclined..) search for another answer, which may lead to the unlocking of more knowledge for society as a whole.
(8) Again I say look to those people who have had somebody near to them suddenly turn their back as a result of one person "discovering religion" while those close to them havent. How has religion benefited those people?
Personally I would say that just as it is not religion that does evil but the interpretation of individuals, it is not religion that does good but rather those people who have chosen to interpret it in such a way that they are encouraged to go out and help others. Every individual makes a choice to do good or to do bad, some people simply choose to dedicate their lives to helping others, and plenty of those people are not religious. Their religious beliefs and their interpretation of religious teachings may have helped to mould them into the person they are, but they were the ones responsible for making the choice.
(9) How? It IS a myth. ado did not say whether he personally believed it or not. It is the word of one person against another with no proof either way. The people who know the truth in this issue are all long dead and gone.
(10) 100% correct, don't forget that this applies to religion also.
(11) I disagree here. There is plenty of information available for everybody living in a western society to make their own informed decision about religion. In fact I would go so far as to say that the majority of children living in religious families are those who in fact are deluded into believing without all relevant information. How many Christian (Or Buddhist, or Muslim, or Anglican) families do you know that actively encourage their children to learn about other religions BEFORE being forced into going to church every sunday, reading the bible, etc etc?
I apologise if it seems that I am having a go at you here fourdapostle, because I am not. But I do disagree with much of what you have said and the way you have said it, to me, comes across as very strong "bible bashing." The "this is what I believe, it is the way it is, you are wrong if you disagree and that's all there is to it because that is what God said" kind of attitude is one of the main things that drives me away from western religions... I must say thought that I am thoroughly enjoying this, religion is definately one of the better subjects to debate if you have the right people to debate it with
Another two cents from me..
-Dave
Hey Warby sorry for the delay, but work you know...here we go.
1. Ok, I submit to your information (wikapedia I believe), however where is the evidence of the continuing event of evolution, show me one that has changed with the balance and truth of what it was before. Is it that slow that no one ever encounters any one or thing that has evolved. What I read is of organism adapting to a different place or environment; cells adapting to an environment changed by us usually (sounds like the Borg of startrek, they assimilate but they are still the Borg). As I said earlier, show me the ape we came from and if we did why are there still apes? Even the evolutionist realize that the eye could not evolve, I would just like to see the soup river everyone speaks of.
'To get some idea', is that proof to you? Because it sure is not to me.
2. Mans misinterpretation is still used by God to get across His ideas however biased and twisted. He used the Persians, Babylonians, Judas and many others to do His will.
I could quote you from a ‘holy book’ where the non believer is to be killed if they won’t convert and it is not in the Bible.
3. No offence, “this is rubbish”, how do you know...
If people are called to account for their lives that could change a lot of peoples ideas. Do you know of the fullness of Christ? Have you ever experienced God at all?
If not why would you call it rubbish?
You have chosen your course and you can try and convince others and I could also say it is rubbish, but I wouldn’t it is your perception. I have been where you are at, but have you been where I am in Christ? I have many friends who say that England/London is a dump and ‘who would want to live there’, but they have never set foot outside of Australia, very much along the lines of an argument you are using, without substance. If they have never been there why comment.
Schools do not teach Christianity, however other religions are, my comment was to teach across the board and then for them to make an informed decision.
As said earlier in the name of Christ so much damage has been done we agree on this I know, but we need to change that and move forward. You speak of divorce or pregnant daughters being kicked out of Christian homes, this should never happen in Christianity. But groups calling themselves by the name of Christ, in those groups unfortunately it does. I have not personally heard of a Christian family kicking out their daughter for becoming pregnant however in saying that I don’t know everyone; we are not perfect and for me personally it is sad that it happens.
For a person to divorce because of God is against the scriptures. In my opinion you are not really speaking of a Christian Church; other religious bodies (calling themselves Christians) do such things but show me or give me a Christian church that does such things and I will approach them for you.
Christian homes burned are not in Australia, you are speaking of centuries ago, or in places where Christianity is not permitted to be practiced eg, Middle East, Thailand, Malaysia, or even in some European countries, even though they all profess Freedom of religion, I have yet to see it; I am not sure where your info is coming possible word of mouth however clarification would be appreciate.
Proof of religious bodies being to powerful; that can and is happening and as you say quite rightly it shouldn’t.
4. By being written I am saying that many believe as you have said that much of what is written in the scriptures has been twisted and re written, but that is not true. Jezza pointed out quite rightly that the Hebrew and Greek are very hard to twist, its context which is twisted not the Bible. It’s a persons translation of the subject and sometimes those that translate are very limited in their abiltiy, the bible is true and right it just gets twisted to suit a situation unfortunately. You say you would rather believe the written word and yet you choose not too, strange.
5. Proof, well to give you proof I imagine the type you require would be DNA, bones something it’s just not going to happen. Evidence is in the written word (the word became flesh John 1:14), for thousands of years and yet it’s not enough. The only proof that carries any weight is our life in Christ, there you go, ‘Proof’ I am living proof. Once I was going this way now I going that way, but that is not what you would like. This is where Faith comes into the equation. Faith believes that what I read in the scriptures is true, that Christ lived died and was raised again. I can’t prove that to you but it’s your choice to accept or reject the ‘proof’, but its through reading weighing up all the info and making a decision, faith in the facts and truth of the Scriptures.
6. I live and worship Christ not His creation.
7. Atheism, in the 18 century was called reason, thoughts ideas were brought to the ‘Bar of Reason’ a time known as the Enlightenment, if it couldn’t be explained it was put into the too hard basket and disregarded.
I believe that many are throwing out the baby with the bathwater, dangerous way to think and live.
8. Religion is to follow a set of rules and laws made and put in place and enforced by man.
Christianity is relationship; Christ came to set free not to bind up with more laws.
Who is my brothers keeper, I am.
Cain said that he wasn’t and it’s perpetuated from millennia many have become isolated islands with a huge fences around them.
9. Because they are dead, does it mean that its unimportant now? What was quoted by the Baptist in 1915 I think he said, if you proclaim that with no other information it would indicate a form of belief in what was read I believe. no offence Adz
However in saying that we won’t know this side of heaven…:-)
10. well one we agree on…
11. I know many people within the church who do teach about other beliefs, it is the only way to learn a balanced view of all. To be so entrenched in one only, is dangerous.
Children are taken to church, most parents believe that it is a community that is safe not only for the children but for them also to learn.
Others would rather let them play on computers and games, yes boundaries need to be put in place until they are of an age to make their own decision.
I put knifes away from the kids when young, I told them to not jump in front of cars on the road or jump out the car window as we are on the freeway, or jump out of the window form the second floor. Parents put the boundaries in they believe to be good and wholesome for their children.
Information is abundant but the information most look to is not what I would call educational or of much benefit? Responsible parenting is a rare thing today, look around you, most let the children do what ever; …it is not what I would call parenting, letting children make adult decisions.
I would prefer quite honestly to as you say ‘bible bash’ then to ‘evolution bash’. The Bible has substance which has been proven over the centuries, sure we have done a lot to discourage people, but the truth found within…well…we can argue all you like.
I may sound forceful, it’s because I believe them to be true. Christ is not some philosophical thought or idea which sounds good as some would like you to believe, there is too much written proof.
He lives today in each person who proclaims the love for Him….each Christian is proof that the savior Lives today and for ever.
Maybe that’s the proof you need. :-)
Hear from you soon.....
