124 replies to this topic

[Den]

Below is an interesting documentary that shows the disturbing reality and exposes the cruelty of the human practice of dog breeeding and keeping,

http://www.spikedhum...gs-Exposed.html

Breeders create genetically deficient, mutated animals for the selfish pleasure and self gratification of "dog lovers", additionally we have most dogs kept for long periods of time in solitude in small suburban houses or backyards, the equivalent of a life jail sentence, for an animal with an active body and brain that requires constant environmental stimulation and companionship to maintain a healthly body and mental balance, the house and suburban backyard is nothing better than a prison and torchure chamber for a dog. According to the Sydney morning herald the RSPCA alone euthanized 24,000 dogs last year and an estimate of about 60,000 unwated dogs were euthanized last year in Australia. I expect a bunch of suburban dog owners to get up here and say how well they look after their dog, you can keep fooling yourself, but please dont try to kid me, its time to face reality.

Currently I am facing an interesting situation. My Father and step mother have the "pleasure" of the "lovely" new neighbours who have recently moved in across the road being "dog lovers". These new neighbours have a rottweiler in their house. Whenever my frail and elderly parents walk out into the front yard (to check mail, go for walk or gardening ect) this dog agressively barks at them through the neighbours front flyscreen door. This is an act of aggressive intent, that is, the dog is signaling the potential act of aggression, but prevented by a barrier, a flyscreen that could one day be broken or left open. If I was to scream and threaten these neighbours every time they were in their front yard I could be arrested, but why is a dog allowed to act in a threatening and menacing manner? Are my parents supposed to just keep hoping that flyscreen door never gets accidently left open?, and if it ever does get out hope the dog won't attack them? they now live in fear and are afraid whenever they step out of their own house. If anyone has had to deal with a similar situation that can offer some advice I'd appreciate it, I dont think talking to these people will work, they dont look the full quid.

[dazzabozza]

Gday Den

Another great debate topic coming up I see.... I'm sure it'll push a few buttons.

Breeders create genetically deficient, mutated animals for the selfish pleasure and self gratification of "dog lovers"

I agree that there's some breeders that do experiment with mixing the breeds etc to meet the demands of a "designer fashion" market. Puppy farms is a topic worthwhile looking into further too, quite sad really . On the other hand you do have the more responsible breeders and dog keepers that keep pedigree lines with genetic health being a priority. As to where these dogs end up and how they are kept is not always in their control.

additionally we have most dogs kept for long periods of time in solitude in small suburban houses or backyards, the equivalent of a life jail sentence, for an animal with an active body and brain that requires constant environmental stimulation and companionship to maintain a healthily body and mental balance, the house and suburban backyard is nothing better than a prison and torture chamber for a dog.

Suggestions as to where else they should be? Roaming wild doing what they like? Kinda reminds me of a similar threat / topic.... sharks! U can also apply the same analogy to fish keeping. We took fish from the wild that were living in gigalitres of water and put them in sub 1000L tanks....

According to the Sydney morning herald the RSPCA alone euthanized 24,000 dogs last year and an estimate of about 60,000 unwanted dogs were euthanized last year in Australia.

Sad figures

I expect a bunch of suburban dog owners to get up here and say how well they look after their dog, you can keep fooling yourself, but please dont try to kid me, its time to face reality.

Same applies to any animal that is kept captive. Something I've stated a few times if it wasn't for human greed, curiosity, self-satisfaction issues like this wouldn't come about. It's unlikely we can stop people keeping animals so all we're left with is the hope that people will do it responsibly.

Currently I am facing an interesting situation. My Father and step mother have the "pleasure" of the "lovely" new neighbours who have recently moved in across the road being "dog lovers". These new neighbours have a rottweiler in their house. Whenever my frail and elderly parents walk out into the front yard (to check mail, go for walk or gardening etc) this dog aggressively barks at them through the neighbours front flyscreen door. This is an act of aggressive intent, that is, the dog is signalling the potential act of aggression, but prevented by a barrier, a fly screen that could one day be broken or left open. If I was to scream and threaten these neighbours every time they were in their front yard I could be arrested, but why is a dog allowed to act in a threatening and menacing manner? Are my parents supposed to just keep hoping that flyscreen door never gets accidental left open?, and if it ever does get out hope the dog won't attack them? they now live in fear and are afraid whenever they step out of their own house. If anyone has had to deal with a similar situation that can offer some advice I'd appreciate it, I dont think talking to these people will work, they dont look the full quid.

I can totally relate to this. I've had some aggressive dogs in surrounding houses over years and accidents do happen. When I was about 7 our neighbour had a rottie. Every time we walked past the fence via the walkway it used to try to jump the fence to get to us. One day it got out and had a full on fight with my dog. I was stuck in the middle of them, when they stood on their hind legs they were twice my height. Quite a scary situation and lucky that I wasn't hurt. Having the constant fear can be quite annoying. My Mum used to drive her car to visit a friend four driveways down because she was scared of the dog in between LOL. Either way I haven't heard of laws being written to protect people from their "fears" with the exception of people-to-people restraining orders but I'd doubt dogs will take must notice of them

Nice comparison BTW "If I was to scream and threaten these neighbours every time they were in their front yard I could be arrested, but why is a dog allowed to act in a threatening and menacing manner?". Look at it from the dog's point of view it itself feels threatened and is warding off strangers. It's just as scared.

A difficult scenario. Hopefully their neighbours will respect your grandparents concern and keep the dog out of sight. Fingers crossed it doesn't get loose....


Daz
BTW I won't be surprised if you don't agree with me in any way or form

[marie90]

Hi Den

Working in a vet clinic I see alot of dogs get put to sleep everyweek because they arent the 'flavour of the month' or people dont want it anymore and cant be bothered trying to get rid of it themselves. Some people surprisingly start looking for a new 'genetically mutated' dog asap. Its sad but you cant do anything.
I have seen countless videos of dogs bred in puppy mills and some people dont even realise that there are a large number of those cute little fluffy puppies that come from puppy mills. Not only is it a cruel and inhumane way to breed dogs this way, it is also harmful to the dogs and and can lead to many health problems and pain because of the deformities that people are trying to achieve. Eg) A pug with a pushed in face creates breathing problems and if the wrinkles arent cleaned it can cause many infections.

If people dont have time to spend time with their animals and take proper care for them then they should not bother getting one.
I also believe that because of the high numbers of euthenasia, only registered breeders should be allowed to breed dogs. This also prevents unnecessary cross breeding on certain dogs (pit bulls) that are strictly not to be bred. But then that is too much paper work for our poor government and too hard for them to try and control.

Aggression is a whole other topic that i can talk for hours about. I am a qualified basic dog trainer and the best thing you could do for your dog is if you have them as a puppy....take them to puppy class and socialise them with other dogs. The critical social period for dogs is roughly between 4 & 16 weeks. So getting them to interact with other puppies not from their own litter teaches them how to behave nicely and interact with other dogs. Its the best thing I ever did for my dog.

I think thats all from me

[fishcrazy]

I expect a bunch of suburban dog owners to get up here and say how well they look after their dog, you can keep fooling yourself, but please dont try to kid me, its time to face reality.

Same applies to any animal that is kept captive. Something I've stated a few times if it wasn't for human greed, curiosity, self-satisfaction issues like this wouldn't come about. It's unlikely we can stop people keeping animals so all we're left with is the hope that people will do it responsibly.

I hope Your applying this to all your fish aswell.. Which inturn makes us ALL bad people for keeping them in captivity. I just find it odd that people point out the cruelty of confining animals and we confine fish in tanks commonly ranging from 100L to 1200L lets face it, even a 10x3x3 is a jail for one fish.. and we cram 20 into there. same rull applies. Sorry for the contraversial reply but i think if people are going to pick on dog owners when they are doing the same thing to fish it needs to be pointed out and i hope a good debate comes of it.

[mick]

I hope Your applying this to all your fish aswell.. Which inturn makes us ALL bad people for keeping them in captivity. I just find it odd that people point out the cruelty of confining animals and we confine fish in tanks commonly ranging from 100L to 1200L lets face it, even a 10x3x3 is a jail for one fish.. and we cram 20 into there. same rull applies. Sorry for the contraversial reply but i think if people are going to pick on dog owners when they are doing the same thing to fish it needs to be pointed out and i hope a good debate comes of it.

Why is it jail? If you took these fish from the wild it would be jail.

The fish dont know any better.

[fishcrazy]

Why is it jail? If you took these fish from the wild it would be jail.

The fish dont know any better.

and nor do the dogs bred in captivity. so one could ask. why is that jail?

[Donna]

Hi Den,

I agree with most of what you are saying, again your actual points are not clear, and are imbedded in a tapestry of emotion. I will begin by pointing out the valid historical link between human kind and dogs that is/was based on a more symbiotic relationship or a parntership than what we are seeing today, which boils down to mindless abuse on many occasions.

The partnership between humans and dogs began some 13 000 years BC. That partnership is two fold and reciprocal

1. Human and dog: is based on human needs for help with herding and hunting, an early alarm system, and a source of food and warmth (don't forget warmth), transport, in addition to the companionship many of us today know and love. It was also about hygiene in that dogs are very good at cleaning up remaining offal from a kill, human excrement and generally keeping campsites free of undesirable refuse.

2. Dog and human: Dogs get companionship, protection warmth, and shelter, and a reliable food source out of the deal. Safety in numbers.

There is a difference between self satisfaction and companionship, and I believe the difference is mainly respect between a human and their dog. Also, another significant difference between getting the "in fashion" bull mastif and having a companion dog, is that the companion dog has a place in the household and a purpose (eg sheep dog, guard dog etc) and gains respect for that reason...it has a place in the pack and a job to do.

Many people now have a dog for no other purpose excepting 1. fashion 2. Wow factor, look how beautiful, viscious, trendy, unusual etc my dog that lives in the corner of the yard and never gets exercised is.... 3. Got bored one day and decided to get a puppy 4. This dog says something about how I am

The euthanasia rates for any animal is absolutely appalling.

As for the dog that is menacing your parents....I do feel for them. However, many people have a perception that crime is increasing and a dog might help to protect them (one of their original roles in the partnership) It may not be an act of aggression, rather than an act of protection. Rotties are perimeter guard dogs, that is the trait they have been bred for, and they are only carrying out their duty. As for the demeanour of the owners, they probably do take it for granted that they have a very, very powerful dog, and instead of respecting that, and also being empathetic to those who may fear the dog they are allowing the dog give the appearance of aggression, that is different, but looks the same as protection.

I grew up in a two bedroom asbestos house and at one time shared the house with 17 dogs. My mum was a dog breeder (hah hah and bi polar, but that is another story)
I know a little bit about dogs, in fact when I was six years old I wanted to be a geneticist and improve the breed we had (gun dogs, and yes we worked them with the gun).
I have many strategies for dealing with pack behaviour, breaking up dog fights, my hands have significant scarring from dealing with those dogs. I have also been surrounded by a group of "pit bulls" and had to use all my knowledge of animal behaviour to prevent myself from being mauled (even then it could have been just luck)

Dogs are unpredictable, but I believe mainly because they are confused about their role, or they don't have one because the owners have simply bought a bauble, not an animal which needs to be understood, respected and given a job to do in the household and be part of the pack.

Working dogs seem to be very happy dogs, as well as those dogs who know their place and have been trained not to exhibit protective behaviours when it is inappropriate to do so, and they know who is boss dog (hopefully the humans). I think we have simply lost touch with the purpose of dogs, and the 15 000 year or so relationship that has existed between us and them. If people are not going to have some kind of relationship with the dog other than "look what I have" then don't bother. If you are not going to respect and correctly train a dog that you bought for protection to tell the difference between danger and the bloody neighbours...don't bother. Dogs are very capable of learning all these things. If you don't have the time to do the research, or raise them correctly, don't bother.

Get some other trophy that tells people something about who you are. Try a large screen TV, make sure you get one that can be seen from the moon.

Just some thoughts,


Regards,

Donna

[marie90]

I expect a bunch of suburban dog owners to get up here and say how well they look after their dog, you can keep fooling yourself, but please dont try to kid me, its time to face reality.

I must say that my dog is actually a well looked after dog. She gets a nice sized backyard, proper nutritionally balanced meals, plenty of toys and treats, even gets to sleep on the bed with us when we allow it, goes to dog training, goes for walks every single day, comes for a drive in the car whenever we can take her without having to stop at places, been desexed, up to date with vaccinations and worming etc, perfectly healthy and is always super happy. So if that isnt looking after our dog then I dont know what is.

We dont necessarily keep animals captive if they dont know any other way.
We cant just release them into the wild because the breed of dogs these days and the way that people have altered their temperaments and behaviour, they just would not survive on their own.
So now its our responsibility to take control of our own animals and offer them the best quality of life that we can

[Donna]

I guess the whole point is, not to release dogs into the wild, because they are not wild... they are not being kept captive 15 000 years of domestication shows that they are an integral part of humanity. It's about getting in touch with "why" we have a dog. Your dog Marie, has a purpose. It is a companion, part of the family, keeps you warm on a "Three Dog Night", (indigenous North Americans used dogs to describe the severity of the cold!) The dog keeps you walking, reduces you blood pressure etc etc. I am sure Den would acknowledge the role of dogs and describe them as being inseparable from many cultures (should add, some Muslim cultures etc do not tolerate dogs)
Perhaps Den could clarify his concerns as I don't think dogs really need to be exposed as such, but their owners. Those who buy a dog, never walk it, separate it from the pack, leave it wondering about it's role in the family and never giving it any feedback on its place. This is an absolute disgrace and goes against a long and proud history of the coexistence between humanity and dogs.

Regards,

Donna

[ado]

Den,
it appears to me you have a lot of time to trawl the internet and get passionately excited about anything that catches your fancy.


Is this a topic that you are (were) actually interested and involved in previously? or is it an emotional response to the last thing you stumbled across on the web?
ditto to money, sharks, etc

have to agree with comments made regarding the anger at incompetent pet owners rather than the pet themselves.


statements like these:
the house and suburban backyard is nothing better than a prison and torchure chamber for a dog
make me wonder if there really is any point discussing this topic. I'm sorry but thats a ridiculous statement...and hardly warrants entering into a discussion about this topic at all.

cheerio

ado

[Den]

statements like these:
the house and suburban backyard is nothing better than a prison and torchure chamber for a dog
make me wonder if there really is any point discussing this topic. I'm sorry but thats a ridiculous statement...and hardly warrants entering into a discussion about this topic at all.

cheerio

ado

Ado I pick subjects where I feel I will generally be in a minority view point and put myself on the chopping block for all your entertainment. and if you've going to call my statements rediculous please prove them wrong first, I believe my 4 points below prove my statements are a correct analysis of suburban dog ownership.

The fact that most suburban dogs are cruely imprisoned in solitary confinement against their will is easily proven and expained:

1). The backyard consists of walls and a locked gate that prevents the animal from leaving at its own free will, this situation fits the definition of imprisonment. Extended periods of solitary confinement of a socialable animal over its lifetime can be classified as a form of torchure. I'm sorry to people who find this reality offensive.

2). To prove wether or not your dog is happy in its/your suburban home or imprisoned against it own free will, leave your gate open, if your dog is still there in its backyard 24 hours later I will stand corrected.

3). Now that your gate is open and assuming your dog has escaped its prison of solitude, if you can prove that both your dog and the human inhabitants of suburban society are all safe while your dog chooses and prefers to roam suburbia instead of staying in your backyard I will stand also corrected. I concede that many dogs that survive the suburban jungle (dont get run over by cars, ect) would eventually return home for short periods simply because of food dependence, and not because they miss the "love" of their owners, a common illusion dog owners fantasize about is "their dog loves them" the result of believing Lassie and Benji movies are real, LMAO some people are funny.

4). If you think your backyard is such a great place to live why dont you lock yourself in there and spend nearly your whole life in there by yourself with the constant stench of your own urine and feaces? with the hope of a short walk every now and then?

So at this point I stand by my statement: Dogs are cruely imprisoned and have no place in Suburbia.

On the matter of fish, I agree they are imprisoned, thats why I built 9 and 10 foot tanks, I try to make it as good as possible for them, but due to their need for water you could argue that even in the wild they are somewhat imprisioned simply by the boundaries of water. I also leave 1 lid off each tank so if a fish wants to leave it can.

Cheers
Den

[fishcrazy]

2). To prove wether or not your dog is happy in its/your suburban home or imprisoned against it own free will, leave your gate open, if your dog is still there in its backyard 24 hours later I will stand corrected.

done it before for about 3 years straight she never left the yard. and just the other week i left gate open went to work came home and she was still in back yard. sorry mate but you are corrected

[Den]

Thanks for the feedback fishcrazy

It also depends on what sort of dog breed and how long its been imprisoned?

There is the matter of conditioning and phycological damage related to long term isolation and imprisonment as the longer they are imprisoned the more they loose their natural behaviours and replace them with abnormal behaviours.

Also some breeds are so inbred and deformed that they are incapable of any form of independance from their owners.

Most dog owners I have known so far have to keep their gates locked to prevent escape, especially younger dogs - the still healthy minded dogs, your the first person Ive seen so far to make a claim to the contrary, Im sure there is an explainable reason, perhaps a vet here can confirm but I dont think this is normal behaviour, from what I understand normal healthy minded dogs want stimulation and to explore, almost constantly.

Like I said previously there is also the issue of food dependance to consider, your dog could possibly return for lack of a better alternative, as the suburban environment offers little to a stray animal such as a dog.

Many years ago I have seen large packs of stray dogs roaming the bush at Baldivis, about 20 or more of all shapes, breeds and sizes, it was a weird experience, they completely ignored me, they looked very content in their strides.

Cheers
Den

[fishcrazy]

Thanks for the feedback fishcrazy

It also depends on what sort of dog breed and how long its been imprisoned?

There is the matter of conditioning and phycological damage related to long term isolation and imprisonment as the longer they are imprisoned the more they loose their natural behaviours and replace them with abnormal behaviours.

Also some breeds are so inbred and deformed that they are incapable of any form of independance from their owners.

Most dog owners I have known so far have to keep their gates locked to prevent escape, especially younger dogs - the still healthy minded dogs, your the first person Ive seen so far to make a claim to the contrary, Im sure there is an explainable reason, perhaps a vet here can confirm but I dont think this is normal behaviour, from what I understand normal healthy minded dogs want stimulation and to explore, almost constantly.

Like I said previously there is also the issue of food dependance to consider, your dog could possibly return for lack of a better alternative, as the suburban environment offers little to a stray animal such as a dog.

Many years ago I have seen large packs of stray dogs roaming the bush at Baldivis, about 20 or more of all shapes, breeds and sizes, it was a weird experience, they completely ignored me, they looked very content in their strides.

Cheers
Den

ok i admit it all
My little Dog is an 8 year old Fox Terrier
She was born in the bush and spent her first 4-5 years with an acre or so to run around in before a wire fence that any dog can just walk through.. eg posts with 4-5 wires high .. and the gate was never shut unless we went away. she had other dogs and horses to "socialize" she went camping almost on a weekly basis and love goin fishing in the boat.. but the thing is she grew attached to me very quick as i was the only one to feed her and she always follows me still. she would hunt rabbits and snakes especially after her litter killing snakes was almost daily for her. then she came to the city. and never runs away when i leave the gates open and i can go down to the park with her without a leash she wont go anywhere other than to fetch a ball or play with other dogs. i think shes happy. if she wasnt she wouldnt wag her tail when i let her in or sleep on my lap while im typing this. and i think if any dog is raised right it will never think its in a prison it will never leave its home because of the bond it has with a human.
her whole life she has had countless oppertunities to r un away. shes a good hunter so foods not an issue. and shes never run away

[STEVEGREEN]

i couldnt read everything everyone wrote but this is a topic written by someone who hasnt been touched by the love of a dog .

thats sad.

i feel sorry for you all

i have pure bred dobermann's that come from long healthy show champion bloodlines , i have not been interested in showing my dog's as i know they wouldnt like it.

its a good debate topic , but i love all animals and love interacting with them regularly.

your a strange man Den.

Cheers
Steve Green

[Donna]

Good on you Steve...
I am sick and tired of taking the time to answer these posts and find that people have not read, nor appreciated what has been written, nor do they have the comprehension skills to get on to it....

Steve, at least you are honest My dog turned ten years old today...he has been out for a walk every single day since I have had him, no matter who has died, who is sick, what the weather is like.....he is getting old now..I will love him til he, or I die....

[ado]

I am sick and tired of taking the time to answer these posts and find that people have not read, nor appreciated what has been written, nor do they have the comprehension skills to get on to it....

Totally agree with you Donna.

but this is a topic written by someone who hasnt been touched by the love of a dog. your a strange man Den.

and with you Steve

thats why I built 9 and 10 foot tanks ??????????????????
I'm sorry but have you seen the size of the Amazon?? Even if you built a 90 foot tank it would be a prison!!! With you fish being tortured by being forced to swim in their own faeces!
Try to google the word Hypocrite for an interesting video

I for one won't be reading any more of these Off the Wall posts, to busy actually getting on with a real life.

[Donna]

Totally agree with you Donna.
[i]


Could be time for me to retire as well....someone finally agrees with me

Regards,

Donna

[fishcrazy]

dont have a heart attack coz i support you as well

[Donna]

LOL saved from a heart attack!!

Thanks Fishcrazy, appreciate the support