47 replies to this topic

[THE D]

Hey sydad

I had the water tested on Sunday, pH had dropped and was 6.8, Ammonia NH3 - 8.0(mg/L), Nitrite NO2 - 2.0(mg/L), Nitrate NO3 - 240(mg/L)
When the water was tested they couldnt give me a positive answer as what has happened to the water condition.
But i got another basket of Glass noodles for the filter. so now i have Ceramic noodles at the bottom, Glass noodles in the middle and bio balls at the top.

I have to keep doing 20% water changes every second day until the levels come down.

Also could it be the water additives i put in the water AFTER water changes that could be causing my problems? i use API Stress Zyme and API Stress Coat each water change.

[Buccal]

If prime was added earlier enough in the disaster the fish may have been saved.
A good way to safe guard your set up from ammonia spikes apart from having prime conditioner on standby, is to have two filters, twice of what is needed would be good but you can have two that adds up to what's needed if that makes sense, one is to have coarse media that almost never blocks up and the other as normal with a mixture of fine and medium media.
When it comes to cleaning them, clean them 2-3 weeks apart from each other, this way you have efficient filtration after cleaning filter.Also don't feed fish for two days after filter clean, ammonia levels generate shortly after feeding fish for the next half hour or so.
Remember, you don't keep the fish, you keep the water and the water keeps the fish.

[THE D]

so this prime stuff you mention, what brand is it and is it actually called Prime? i might get some to be on the safe side.

[Neakit]

Im sorry but to use a chemical to control amonia spikes is wrong. If you have to do that your filtration is inadequate. The thing im asking is why you need to recycle your filters? What has been put into the tank to devistate the bacteria? Have you medicated the tank at all?

[THE D]

Never medicated the tank at all!
The filter i use is an Aqua One Nautalis 1400, and does 1400L/H my tank is only 170L so there for that filter should be more than adequate for my tank.

i have upgraded the filter medium and put in an extra basket of glass noodles.

The fish were all in the tank for about 6 weeks together before things went pear shape

[Neakit]

im not trying to attack you, sorry if it seems like that. Just trying to piece together the whole puzzle and its not making sense at all.

[THE D]

Nah your right Neakit.....im not taking anything as an attack.

I just did a water test, things are looking good.....except for my Nitrite levels.....

pH = 8.0, Ammonia = 0.25 ppm, Nitrate = 10-20 ppm.

But my Nitrie was 5.0 ppm in other words too high for my kit to read.

How can i help bring this down...im only feeding fish every second day now, could this be that there is not enough Good Bacteria in my filter due to the new filter Medium?

[Buccal]

Seachem prime, I'm not saying use it for fish keeping at all, purely as a emergency and after filter clean.
To me it's simple what happened, the driven ammonia shortly after fish feeding was getting the better of the beneficial bacteria.
Not enough bacteria in relation to ammonia production and if there was enough beneficial bacteria it would have been that the water was not passing through the areas of the filter correctly, this explains why he was given a media alternative, I still say one coarse filter and another filter that is fine.
It's all very simple really.Grey area alternatives always lead people astray.
Seachem prime is not this bad thing that you shouldn't have to do, if everything is done correctly of coarse you don't need it, I use it no more than eight days out of the year.
What isn't realized is that most of the very successful tang breeders over east use it for delicates that don't tolerate ammonia and nitrate to well.
Nitrate is rarely harmful to fish, only at high levels do fish suffer, tangs are less tolerable.
Water with very low readings of nitrate all the time will result in fish growing 100 miles an hour, nitrate stunts growth, but don't stress about nitrate, the major problem is how long does ammonia stay present in your tank until the beneficial bacteria gobbles it all up.
A blocked filter from not cleaning also media to fine that blocks easy will not allow water to pass through efficiently thus can't be treated by beneficial bacteria living within the media.
I'm a huge breeder and never used prime in breeding practices, only in my desired over stocked display tank.
All this should make things click for you, maybe.

[Buccal]

The cycle
Ammonia gets converted to nitrite, then nitrite gets converted to nitrate
If you have a reading of nitrite, leave it, do nothing, I promise within three to four days ammonia and nitrite will disappear and you will have a nitrate reading and that's good, it's cycle complete, then you can start the weekly one third water changes.The water changes keeps nitrate diluted to a low.
If the cycle is not understood and you keep intervening with it before it finishes you will keep going back to square one.
Patience
You can't defy mother nature, work with it.

[THE D]

The cycle
Ammonia gets converted to nitrite, then nitrite gets converted to nitrate
If you have a reading of nitrite, leave it, do nothing, I promise within three to four days ammonia and nitrite will disappear and you will have a nitrate reading and that's good, it's cycle complete, then you can start the weekly one third water changes.The water changes keeps nitrate diluted to a low.
If the cycle is not understood and you keep intervening with it before it finishes you will keep going back to square one.
Patience
You can't defy mother nature, work with it.

That has just clicked to me mate.
At the moment my Ammonia and Nitrate levels are low, but my Nitrite levels are high.
So what your saying is that at the present moment my tank is cycling and converting the bad bacteria into heathly water which is why i am seeing such high Nitrite levels, because its mid process?
Am i getting the idea?

[Buccal]

Absolutely, but ammonia, nitrite, nitrate are not bad bacterias, they are to be refered as toxins in the cycle
Ammonia extremely toxic, the worst
Nitrite almost as bad as ammonia but not quite
Nitrate is harmless at low to moderate levels
It seems you may have the beginning of understanding the cycle.
Understanding is different to knowing the cycle.
I'm sure things will pick up for you from here, good luck to you.

[THE D]

Hey,

So i did a test this morning, and my levels have come right down which is good.
My test sheet i got from Aquotix shows Nitrate and Nitrite levels on mg/L but my testers measures in PPM.

I was told to keer my Nitrite to 0.0 mg/L
And to keep my Nitrate to below 40 mg/L.

My API tester says i have Nitrate level of 5.0ppm now is this acceptable? as 5.0ppm is 5 mg/L.

[simmoman]

If your natrite and ammonia are zero then you are in front. Natrates are made out to a big nasty by some but it's not a big deal as it may seem.
80ppm is not a problem or even 100 or 120. Each week the nitrate level shouldn't climb as this indicates that there isn't enough water being changed. Natrates are more of an indicator rather than a demon so if over a period of time your natrates climb to 150 then you know you need to increase the water changing volume.
I couldn't get my nitrates down to 5 unless I did a full water change so don't worry about it too much.

[THE D]

I have done a water test tonight and my Nitrites are very high again.....all my other readings are all good.
pH 8.4, Ammonia 0.25ppm, Nitrate 30ppm,

but my Nitrates are around 5.0ppm

Whats going on? i have 8 BN catfish, 2 dragon bloods and 1 silver shark.
We were hoping to get some more cichlids but not if our water doesnt clear up.

We are getting rid of 4x BN and the silver shark.

[Buccal]

Everything pretty much now covered, you have to be overfeeding for this to keep happening.
Don't clean your filters, your set up should see your filters last for almost two months before a clean.
Filters efficiency roughly maximizes two weeks of cleaning.
To many filter cleans will keep bringing you back to square one.
Over worry can keep a aquarist constantly disturbing the bio balance.
Advice, sit back do nothing for the next two weeks and feed your fish every second day only.
Then test the water.
When experienced, you can throw all your test kits away.

[werdna]

How much are you feeding at a time?
That isnt a very high stock level.
Sounds like you should half both your feeding frequency AND the amount.

[Mr_docfish]

I failed to see this thread earlier - but now after reading all the posts, I can explain what has happened - as it happens frequently over the years...
As Syd has pointed out, if the NO3 get very high, it forms an acid.... and after time, as the alkaline buffers get used by the bacteria and get neutralized by the acids from the high nitrates, the pH will drop..... sometimes it can drop below 6.0 - in this case, the bacteria start dying off (they prefer neutral to alkaline conditions) and when they die off, the ammonia and nitrite will spike..... now at the low pH, you will not often notice the ammonia issue, but if there is a reasonable NO2 level, then you will notice it (as you did) that is if the low pH has not already stressed your fish..... in doing the water change, and adding all the required salts and buffers, the NO2 would have been made redundant by the high GH, but the ammonia would have been made toxic in the high KH/pH levels. In hindsight, you could have just kept the KH/pH low and just increase the GH and the fish may have survived.... but damage was done, and it will take several weeks to get the bacteria back into condition. Prime or Ammolock would have helped to detoxify the ammonia, but dont use too much of it (less than double dose) and use caution in high temps (above 28C).... and in all cases, increase the aeration as much as possible.

It is all too late now I know, but next time, I hope you and others can save your fish.

[Buccal]

Only a true experienced person can explain like Mr docfish, but I did notice the GH and high ph of over 8.0 showing the tank is reasonably stable from the beginning of post to now, seeming more like to me a much more simple problem of water pollution, over feeding.

[Mr_docfish]

Only a true experienced person can explain like Mr docfish, but I did notice the GH and high ph of over 8.0 showing the tank is reasonably stable from the beginning of post to now, seeming more like to me a much more simple problem of water pollution, over feeding.

Cheers...

The pH was not mentioned till after the water changes and adding of salts "So i immediately did about a 60-70% water change, put the usual chemicals back in the water after a water change." so I have to assume the pH had bottomed out before the water change and was reinstated after the introduction of a KH buffer.
Stable filters do not crash without a good reason - it is normally due to a significant drop in pH, high spike of temp or lack of O2.... or toxin like some medications and chemicals....

But yeah, the NO3 levels are due to over feeding/lack of water changes etc over time....

Edited by Mr_docfish, 25 January 2012 - 10:34 PM.

[Buccal]

Yes, you may be right, it's just this part,
What could cause my NO2, NO3 levels to spike so radically? The tank has been running for about 4 months. The ammonia levels are still below 0.5ppm, PH is about 8.0, GH is about 120, and KH is 180, Water temp was about 27 degrees when i got home. The light stays on for about 10 hours.
When he says when he got home, is it the first time he got home and noticed for the first time?
Or, was this noticed when he got home the second time after doing water changes the first time?
I guess it may come down to whether his description is in order and accurate.
Lol, I might be making this messy.