72 replies to this topic

[werdna]

 

I understand your theory but not feeding the fish for such a lengthy time, doesn't that reduce their immune system and ultimately make them weaker? 

would if be worth in 3 days to give them a tiny feed.

 

How hungry are you when you feel sick?

 

The first thing you should do when fish look unhealthy is stop feeding and water change.

If they still dont look right, add some salt.

 

I believe it is from over feeding too.

And I dont care what your test kit says, it points to ammonia and nitrite spike to me.

Salt will help, I would add around 1.5kg which is 3ppt. Use pool salt.

 

People are always so quick to medicate and it really isnt necessary most of the time.

I would say that overfeeding has been your issue for the last 2 years as well.

[Chopstick_mike]

the filter can be constantly running and still crash, its when something causes the bacteria to die off inside the filter and then the water parameters go screwy.
 
if your adamant that the water is good it could also be external, have u used insect spray or chemicles in the house?

could he be cleaning the filters so often had killed off all the bacteria in them?

Edited by Chopstick_mike, 15 September 2015 - 12:23 PM.

[fuggers]

if you adding meds to the tank with the filter running some arent good to the bacteria. also temp and chlorinated water can screw it up but some times the filter just goes mucky. good reason to run 2 filters, that way u can have a back up. i only clean my filters when the flow rate drops off

[sandgroper]

Your over cleaning everything and stocking to quickly. your probably over feeding to, best to feed tiny amounts, you can always feed again at a later time. The tank is recycling best to read up on the fish cycling of a tank, until you get how important stable water chemistry is for fish you will struggle. good luck

[Melee]

Amazingly, the rest survived overnight, 3 of the 10 are looking almost back to normal already, but my big and only male is still looking bad.

Thank you for all your suggestions, it looks like it was over feeding, something so little ~ never knew it could be this disastrous. 

 

How hungry are you when you feel sick?

 

The first thing you should do when fish look unhealthy is stop feeding and water change.

If they still dont look right, add some salt.

 

I believe it is from over feeding too.

And I dont care what your test kit says, it points to ammonia and nitrite spike to me.

Salt will help, I would add around 1.5kg which is 3ppt. Use pool salt.

 

People are always so quick to medicate and it really isnt necessary most of the time.

I would say that overfeeding has been your issue for the last 2 years as well.

I don't have any pool salt  1.5kg is a lot, i have some cichlid salt, which i would add according to scale ~ but want to minimise their changes according to Buccal.

Sorry for overreacting with chemicals, just tried to block any servere infection which could kill my fish.

Over feeding makes perfect sense, as the plecos and bristles have no problem, clown loachs are struggling a bit which i assume is the water chemistry.

If the male survives the next day and a female i hope we might be in the clear! and possibly re-colonise the colony for the future. FINGERS CROSSED!

[shorty]

Im new to this all but I had a similar experience and iv put it down to chlorine poisoning. Was under dosing dechlor at water changes , once I figured that out never had it since , just an idea.

[Melee]

Im new to this all but I had a similar experience and iv put it down to chlorine poisoning. Was under dosing dechlor at water changes , once I figured that out never had it since , just an idea.

That was one of the initial things i thought the problem could be, but i noticed when i did water changes, they seemed to be looking better.

The fish can go for 3 weeks or more with out food.
I'm a very big breeder,,, I only feed my fish once a day and only 4-5 days a week and they all breed.

The symptoms of your fish explained and going by text explanations without looking at tank in person, appears that ammonia has been the issue which is 80% of the time the problem in most peoples cases.
It must be understood that such circumstances may trigger off secondary disease issues which are other diseases that are caused by the intial issue.
Once fish have been exposed to ammonia at high enough levels for long enough, they will be PERMANENTLY effected and likely destined for death as ammonia ammonia burns gills, eyes and fin edges as well as compromising the protective slime coat which guards the fish against some diseases.

Your filter can be running fine and fish still effected by ammonia due to excessive feeding (again a common problem amongst aquarists).
Feeding sera-flora allows you to feed a little more and make mistakes as its a cleaner food and passes through fish nicely and doesn't cause blockages in fish which also is a cause of disease due to over feeding.
Everything in the aquarium is always inter-related and is never as black and white as many people seem to think.

If you start doing things to your fish to cure them that has nothing to do with the actual issue then you'll likely push them over the edge and kill them anyway.

So lights of, no water changes (this will reduce stress), and no feeding (will allow water to shift into optimum condition and allow fish to detox),,,,,, There is no stress in not feeding for intervals.
Remember in nature females mouth brood for 17-18 days with no food intake.
Make sure water surface is breaking to allow oxygen transfer for the rest of your fish keeping life.

Once gills (fishes breathing apparatus) are to far effected the fish are destined to die.

I'd suggest, if/when you get back on track choose your busiest day of the week and don't feed fish these days.
And only feed once a day and feed the amount you were feeding in one feeding session, don't feed more because your feeding once a day.
If you go on holidays or fish go without food for two weeks or more, that's fine, and don't ever try to ram more food to play catch up as I've seen some do.

Fish in the wild don't gauge themselves like they do in the tank,,, is much more natural in the wild that they eat a little here and little bit there,,,,,,, also not being in a closed system that can pollute (ammonia spike), at the blink of of a eye.

"feeding fish is a art in its self".

Thanks again,

Just one last question, salt?

Would it be worth adding a correct dosage?

I've read some posts saying this is good to help the fish recover, others saying it reduces the amount of oxygen in the tank.

I also am not sure if i should change/add it in case it stresses the fish.

Maybe only a little bit per day?

 

All fish are still looking sick, and most likely going to die, if not tonight, tomorrow :'(

Thanks

[Melee]

So sad, i think the problem has finally got their brains.

Some fish are doing barrel rolls in efforts to scratch themselves, others are twitching severely. 

Others are just swimming slowly to the surface and back down.

 

Feel so bad ....

 

P.s Turns out my test kit was faulty, as no readings are being registered for any of my tanks now, 1 week ago they were reading accurately.

[shorty]

This sounds the same as mine was , makes you panic and stress out

[malawiman85]

Salt. Just like werdna said. Best thing for it. Go get a 20kg bag from bunnings its about $6. Seriously good stuff for a variety of problems.
Too late now though I reckon.

[Melee]

This sounds the same as mine was , makes you panic and stress out

i have a strong feeling it was chlorine looking more into it, although i had the water running for weeks with air stones. But there is no way to tell

[Melee]

Salt. Just like werdna said. Best thing for it. Go get a 20kg bag from bunnings its about $6. Seriously good stuff for a variety of problems.
Too late now though I reckon.

Just treated tank with the recommended, i think its too late anyway

Do you think it is more chlorine poisoning or over feeding?

[Buccal]

It's very unlikely chlorine poisoning,,, but still is a minimal possibility.
Yes salt helps for sure,,, recommended amounts always seems a lot,,, Werdna's dosage is near enough to the rates I've done and suggested in the past,,, googling helps you to rest assure.
And as MM said pool salt from bunnings is cheap as and is 100% for medicinal purposes.

As I said before, ammonia exposure effects the Gills by burning them.
If gills are to far gone, they are dead fish swimming.
Chlorine and the likes of, tends to effect instantly after water changes, and bleeds out of water pretty fast soon after.

But try to mentally harden up a bit, and keep lights of and don't feed for a week, and be sure to remove dead fish ASAP.
You can also add salt as its medicinal and I believe it possibly has a calming effect.
Just be patient till weeks end then re-assess.

If you decide to get back on the wagon,,, then keep your KH at a moderate of 8-10.
Practice the lighter feeding regimes and only clean filters as you notice them slowing flow a bit,,,, this will be letting your filters go a little long, but it will allow you to learn how long you can go before cleaning, eventually you'll knw when to Clean filters a few weeks before they slow flow.

Believe it or not,,, these bad situations is what makes and shapes you into the ultimate aquarist.

[Melee]

It's very unlikely chlorine poisoning,,, but still is a minimal possibility.
Yes salt helps for sure,,, recommended amounts always seems a lot,,, Werdna's dosage is near enough to the rates I've done and suggested in the past,,, googling helps you to rest assure.
And as MM said pool salt from bunnings is cheap as and is 100% for medicinal purposes.

As I said before, ammonia exposure effects the Gills by burning them.
If gills are to far gone, they are dead fish swimming.
Chlorine and the likes of, tends to effect instantly after water changes, and bleeds out of water pretty fast soon after.

But try to mentally harden up a bit, and keep lights of and don't feed for a week, and be sure to remove dead fish ASAP.
You can also add salt as its medicinal and I believe it possibly has a calming effect.
Just be patient till weeks end then re-assess.

If you decide to get back on the wagon,,, then keep your KH at a moderate of 8-10.
Practice the lighter feeding regimes and only clean filters as you notice them slowing flow a bit,,,, this will be letting your filters go a little long, but it will allow you to learn how long you can go before cleaning, eventually you'll knw when to Clean filters a few weeks before they slow flow.

Believe it or not,,, these bad situations is what makes and shapes you into the ultimate aquarist.

Thanks a million for your support.

Just this isn't the first time it has happened and been looking for the cause of the problem and thankfully i have found it. Unfortunately seeing fish die is hard for me, and i'm sure i'm not the only one.

 

I think in a few months i will remove all coral sand and just start up a natural plant aquarium.

[Leaf Fish]

How much are you feeding your fish? A teaspoon at a time or less?
When you water change this tank, do you water change your other tanks at the same time?
How long has the tank been setup for with fish?
Do you treat the water with prime etc in the bucket you aerate the water you are about to use for your water changes?
Do you use the above bucket for anything else?
When you lost all your other fish overnight, was that after a water change?
Where did the rocks and sand come from? As in bought from a fish store or from a garden?
I wouldn't use the polystyrene box to clean my filter materials in, get some new buckets and only use them. Keep the box for beer though.
Get your water tested at a shop, if your test kit is faulty, this should be a priority. Use a new freezer bag to take the water to a shop and go straight there that way the sample will be fresh.
The first colony loss if it occurred after a water change is most likely from the water, I am wondering if there is something polluting the tank such as pollutants leaching from rocks etc.
Is your thermometer accurate? Does the tank feel warm to the touch? If you have another thermometer, try that.

[bigjohnnofish]

im gonna drop my 2 cents worth in... after reading all the posts.... heres a few hints...

 

1. chlorine poisoning - causes fish to become slimey - its a natural reaction to try to combat the chlorine... obviously too much chlorine and they die...

 

2. first thing to always check before doing anything else - ammonia test... anything other than zero is not acceptable and a problem exists... ok so you tested tank water and it reads zero... api ammonia test kit tends to give you a small reading (0.25-0.5) of ammonia when its out of date or had the diick! when your water actually has zero ammonia... if you want test your tap water for ammonia as it should have around 1ppm of ammonia in it.. i find this good to do every now and then anyway to make sure the test kit is still good....

 

3. nitrate test comes next... make sure the test bottles are shaken for a good min like your shaking a cocktail....extremely high nitrates can appear to have a similar effect as ammonia... if your nitrates are off the scale - 160ppm or greater.... you need to waterchange NOW if this is the case... depending on your fish species nitrate from 0-40ppm is good... 40-80ppm is ok but not ideal... 80ppm or higher and its time to think about a water change.... 

 

4. a lot of medications will kill off your beneficial bacteria.... be aware of this and constantly check for ammonia during treatments... levamisole as a rule doesnt effect your bacteria all that much... although i remember treating 20 tanks simultaneously and 1 out of the 20 crashed the bacteria and i had ammonia issues...

 

5. ph crashes can give your fish whats called ph shock... and yes some fish will die because of it... most fish will adapt to ph anywhere from 6ph - 8ph and some a bit lower or higher again depending on species... but no fish likes going from 8ph bang down to 6ph in a short period of time.... kh is important to stabilize ph and keep it constant... if you have zero kh you have a problem.... i personally like to keep kh around 4-6 but im not keeping any cichlids... other breeders prefer to go higher... kh is important... without it ph will crash and your beneficial bacteria will stop consuming ammonia/nitrite... bacteria need kh (carbonates) to function... 

 

6. oxygen levels are something to consider... need the waters surface to be broken as this is where majority of gaseous exchanges occur... co2 out and 02 in.... 

 

7. gill flukes are pretty common with livebearers - i use IPC (internal parasite clear) if everything else checks out good... 

 

8. raising water temp and adding salt should always be considered - again depending on what species your keeping....

 

 

finally if you decide the damage is done and want to restart - i'll donate some bristlenose to get you started.... 

 

[Melee]

Thanks everyone for your input, help and all information handed over

Unfortunately all my cichlids have died.

 

2 Months ago when i took the fish into my hands, for the first 3 weeks there was no problems fish seemed to be perfectly normal.

 the next weeks were horrible, every day or second day one would die then another until no more were alive.

 

The symptoms were basically heavy breathing ~ some would be swimming normally and have no problems, others were stuck mid water flow and basically looking like they were in a coma.

 

I understand everyones opinions in the probable cause.

 

Ammonia due to over feeding: The could of been one reason, but without feeding the fish for a week; some fish came back to perfect condition for a period of 4-5 days, with no problems, which makes me question ammonia poisoning as what i have learnt is that it permanently effects the fish so, i don't see how they could be looking healthy again, chasing each other and basically looking 'cured'.

Additionally, i feel that ammonia poisoning would have more of an effect on clown loaches and my bristle nose's and Gold spot Pleco.

 

Chlorine poisoning: This could of been an initial problem but seeing their perfect health for 3 weeks with no symptoms makes me believe it wasn't a problem, i did however treat the water several times in weeks leading up to the introduction of the cichlids.

 

nitrates/Nitrites: I took my testing kit to my NFS and it tested perfectly exactly the same as theirs. knowing this my water tested 0 nitrites and 0 nitrates, maybe this was due to my double filtration system. I understand that this is not 'normal' and somewhat 'bad' for the fish as good bacteria had not built up in the filtration but: knowing that they were perfectly fine in the first weeks makes me concerned to why it would effect them, if they were living under neutral conditions for this time with no problems.

 

WhiteSpot/gill flukes: I did in my efforts try to fix this as some fish i noticed were missing flecks of scales etc, however the fish didn't to make any recovery, but i don't think it made them worse, in fact after turning on the UV filter and treating for whitespot, the 'whitespot' which i identified on my clown loaches was healed and completely fixed, hence why i believe they are still swimming around happily.

 

Oxygen: the tank consists of 3 airstones which heaps of surface breaking, as well as a good power head built for this size of the tank in taking some air and breaking the surface with flow.

 

Overall, i do take it as being my fault for not caring for these fish, but i did try in efforts to make them live.

 

My conclusion is the substrate, i feel that coral sand has made a direct effect in the salt contents, and possibly build up of bad gases. I don't totally understand how this is possible, and/or if this has happened to anyone else.

It would however make sense that clown loaches and bristles were not effected as they are 'stronger fish', maybe this could of been the reason for ammonia, i am unsure.

 

Thanks again and hopefully someone can drop some input into coral sand, i am now just going to change substrates and start a common tropical tank for simplicity and looks.

[Buccal]

You quoted this below,,,

"Ammonia due to over feeding: The could of been one reason, but without feeding the fish for a week; some fish came back to perfect condition for a period of 4-5 days, with no problems, which makes me question ammonia poisoning as what i have learnt is that it permanently effects the fish so, i don't see how they could be looking healthy again, chasing each other and basically looking 'cured'.
Additionally, i feel that ammonia poisoning would have more of an effect on clown loaches and my bristle nose's and Gold spot".

I'm just correcting you on this as your incorrect.
You said after not feeding for a week some fish come back to normal,,,, (this points fingers to ammonia being the problem).

You said ammonia permanently effects fish, in a fashion of saying it permanently effects fish in any level of exposure,,,,, well that's very wrong, because most fish can handle low levels, short exposure of ammonia while some others can handle a little more within reason.

You see, some of your fish were effected more than others due to different tolerance levels, being either species differences or just straight out some having better immune systems to each other.

I'll use a horrible example to explain better,,,,,, when Hilter gased the Jews in large cells of 100 people, about 15 would survive then they'd get put into the next gassing,,, sometimes all would die, sometimes one would survive.

You see there are so many reasons that determine probability,,, to take one observation and be black and white on a decision is not a scientific approach.

After your description of outcome after not feeding. (YOUR FISH WERE AMMONIA POISONED), Over feeding, over stocking, insufficient filtration, conditions not matured enough are always most common reasons,

Edited by Buccal, 26 September 2015 - 11:44 AM.

[Buccal]

Just adding also,,,, food can only pass through fishes systems at a given pace.
Over feeding does not only create ammonia issues,,, it also bounds up inside of fish and doesn't pass out fast enough causing internal infection.
Malawi fish are suseptable to this and tangs even more so.

It's not natural for fish to feed gauging all at once,,,, but they'll do it !

[sandgroper]

If you don't let your tank cycle properly you will continue to have the same problems.