17 replies to this topic

[ofishyfish]

Okay I know this has been a topic a 1000 times but this Ammonia is killing me and my fish.

Details
tank 215L with drip filter system containing bio noodles, ammo pads ( just added yesterday/peat/activated carbon ( removed yesterday)
4 adult discus 3 baby ( 2 now dead)
Tank set up 20/06/09 with 6 goldfish.
Discus added 25/07/09

Tank was running beautifully until 16/08/09 ph was 7 no nitrates ammonia 30% weekly water changes. only one dead discus 7 days prior no obvious signs as water looking ok all tests negative. Thought may have been one off as he was the bully of the tank and was eating fine and seemed happyprior to sudden death.

On friday 14/08/09 I did a 30% water change as normal added stress zyme with water change, all on api 5 in 1 test strip ok but didnt check ammonia as all was ok previous 4 days before. woke up to a tank extremely cloudy and ammonia above 8 added ammo lock, by that afternoon fish were gasping at the eop of the tank so i moved them to my quarantine tank out of panic. This is a newly setup 45L tank only 3 weeks with 1 discus in it for last week prior while I completly empties out main tank ( I know this was a mistake but at the time I thought my two year old may have tipped something bad in the tank so panicked.

Left fish in small tank over night to awake to cloudy small tank and fish again gasping for air 1 small dead discus( this tank also had ammo lock in it). moved fish back to clean newly filled tank lfs told me might as well clean all filters out etc as biological filter prob dead anyway and add ammo pads, api bio stuff to help re establish bio filter.) awoke agin to 1 small discus dead (thought he was in bad way when moved him back into big tank). water looked fine yesterday morning after removing smal dead discus. Got home last time tested ph 7.2 and ammonia above 8 again. Have water heating and ready for a water change when I get home tonight.

What is causing this ammonia????????????????????????? now

[Cawdor]

It appears that your filtration has crashed - a few things to note:

is the only media you use the bio noodles and are they the same as ceramic noodles?
do you have any circulation and airation in your tank?

the noodles would not offer much of a surface area for bacteria to colonise so you should probably add media like sponges or Eheim balls (substrate pro?).
do you have a photo of the filter?

All you can do in the meantime is daily partial water changes to keep the ammonia level down and test daily.

[theonetruepath]

...
On friday 14/08/09 I did a 30% water change as normal added stress zyme with water change
...

Sounds like your water change wiped out your filter bacteria.

Even if it seems OK for 6 months, this will catch you eventually. Tap water is simply not safe to add to your tank in 30% amounts.

Sometimes Seachem 'Prime' or 'Safe' will fix it right up, every now and then the Water Corporation will send you a 'magic bullet' of excess chloramine or something which is capable of wiping out your filter.

Age tap water in a barrel for a week, preferably two, outside in the sun is my advice. Add Prime or Safe half way through as well.

[ofishyfish]

Sounds like your water change wiped out your filter bacteria.

Even if it seems OK for 6 months, this will catch you eventually. Tap water is simply not safe to add to your tank in 30% amounts.

Sometimes Seachem 'Prime' or 'Safe' will fix it right up, every now and then the Water Corporation will send you a 'magic bullet' of excess chloramine or something which is capable of wiping out your filter.

Age tap water in a barrel for a week, preferably two, outside in the sun is my advice. Add Prime or Safe half way through as well.

I set up a barrel last night to do my water change I know it isnt very long but atleast I kow my water temp will be ok.

When you say put it in the sun do you do that with a pump or anything as I thought the water would need to be moving not to get all yucky

It appears that your filtration has crashed - a few things to note:

is the only media you use the bio noodles and are they the same as ceramic noodles?
do you have any circulation and airation in your tank?

the noodles would not offer much of a surface area for bacteria to colonise so you should probably add media like sponges or Eheim balls (substrate pro?).
do you have a photo of the filter?

All you can do in the meantime is daily partial water changes to keep the ammonia level down and test daily.

As far as media goes i had - Ceramic noodles, crushed rock, peet, a aqua one carbon filter, sponge pads. all this fills threee trays across the back of my tank
i swapped the carbon filters over to bio balls yesterday and added the ammonia pads instead of the normal sponge pads i had.

[Terry]

Your tank crashed because of a combination of problems
1. A 30% water change is too much if you don't have well aged water
2. Your filter surface area is not big enough for the amount of water and the type of filter can channel water so that all of the media is not used.
3. Your water temp is to high at 32c, there is very little oxygen in warm water. The bacteria cannot survive without oxygen and the small amount of bacteria that remained was probably killed by the large water change.
4. Cleaning your filter because it was dead has set your tank back and you are now going through New Tank Syndrome again

To fix the problem
Put an air stone in the tank now
Lower the temp to 28c there is no reason why you should exceed 30C with discus.
Do 10% water changes daily, the small drop in temp will not harm the fish. When everything settles down do 10% twice per week. Age the water outside with an airstone in it, use API or Prime.
NEVER use water from a hot water system, the copper risk is not worth it.
Put a cannister filter under the tank, fill it with ceramics only, no foam dacron or carbon and only clean it if it slows down.
Keep the trickle filter running with disposable dacron as the top layer, dispose of this as required. If you must use carbon or other absorbent materials they can be put in this filter for easy removal.
Good Luck
Cheers Terry

[Arch]

Goldfish are a NO NO when cycling your tank.
Never ever start a cycle with goldfish.

[Warby]

.... that is one that I've never heard before Arch. Why is goldfish a no no? Not disputing you but I cannot see a reason for it, as long as the fish is healthy (ie no disease or parasites) then it should be just as safe & effective as any other fish.. it produces waste, that waste produces ammonia, bacteria consume the ammonia & produce nitrite, etc etc ....

Again, not disputing or trying to start an argument, just curious

-Dave

Edit: Apart from the obvious differences in water requirements between goldies & cichlids.. but I assume you're referring to something more than just the goldfishes long-term health here?

[ofishyfish]

I was told golfish were the best to start tha aquarium as they are fairly resilient.

Terry are you in the shop either tomorrow or over the weekend and i will come in and you can tell me what to buy

Cheers
Sarah

[Arch]

http://www.firsttank.../nogoldfish.php

http://www.firsttank...e.net/cycle.php

Read it there.

[Terry]

Arch
I checked out your links and most of what is said there is correct but I disagree with the bit about goldfish. Feeder gold fish are not diseased if they were the LFS would not stock them. There isn't any reason why you can't use goldfish to cycle a tank.
If you read something on the net it doesn't mean that it is correct, there is a lot of information out there. Read as much as you can then make up your mind what is best for you.
I have written above that goldfish are ok to use, your link says they are not. Both opinions are now on the internet and will be read by lots of people, you have to decide which one is the one to go with.
Sarah
I will be at Midland 2pm to 9pm today and all day Friday and Saturday
Cheers Terry

[Warby]

Arch, I did a google search before I posted and came across that page... and I would like to point out it was the only page I found that specifically said not to use goldfish.. The reasons put forward there are basically just that (1) feeder fish are diseased [no more likely to be diseased than any other fish from a reputable source]; and (2) they are not going to survive in "tropical" conditions.

The same could be said for ANY fish though not just goldfish, so I stand by my original thought that "Goldfish are a no no" is absolute rubbish. As long as the fish are healthy it doesn't matter a damn what you use for cycling, as long as it's hardy enough to withstand the likely ammonia poisoning. Besides which, If you're concerned about health of the fish after cycling and intend to keep the fish in the tank, then you should be doing a fishless cycle anyway.

Like Terry said, research thoroughly before forming opinions and don't believe everything youread.

[dazzabozza]

IMO any imported fish from outside of Oz would be the riskiest to introduce to your tank. They'd have the most chance of carrying nasty bacteria (even after quarantine).

Daz

[Donna]

Hi everyone,

re: Goldfish and cycling

My main concern would be goldfish are a cold water fish and would be very uncomfortable in a tropical tank that was being cycled to hold tropical fish and presumably being cycled at a temp suited to tropical fish.

Nitrification is more efficient at higher temps so you are either prolonging the cycling period by using a cold water fish to cycle the tank at temps suited to them, or exploiting a cold water fish at higher temps just to get cycling happening.

My question would be then not "can" you but "should" you for humane reasons.

Regards,

Donna

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[Terry]

Most cold water fish can be kept in tropical conditions, tropical fish cannot be kept in cold water. Goldfish would not suffer in any way if you keep them at 25 to 28c, above 28c you would need to increase airation for most fish.

Cheers Terry

[STEVEGREEN]

i wouldn't listen to Arch
Cheers
Steve Green
Edited by Terry
Sorry Steve we have to be nice to people on the PCS forums

[Donna]

Well Terry, if you can be sure that is the case, then I am feeling a bit better about that.

Thanks,

Donna

[Arch]

i wouldn't listen to Arch
Cheers
Steve Green
Edited by Terry
Sorry Steve we have to be nice to people on the PCS forums

No reply to you steve,
Your are outstandingly rude and arrogant. I have received a number of rude PM's.
And all i can say is your not worth replying to.

Sorry terry/Warby/Anyone else about the goldfish.
I was just going by what i read.

[Warby]

Nothing to apologise for Arch, these forums are about information sharing.. I don't think any of us were having a go at you we simply wanted to clarify the reasons behind your statement and either dispel the myth or confirm the facts.

If we all kept what we believed (right or wrong) to ourselves, none of us would learn anything.

-Dave