17 replies to this topic

[MadMoorii]

One of my little electric yellows (Labidochromis caeruleus) is not at all well and we think he (she?) is on his last fins (so to speak).

He has not been eating for almost a week. His head is a little swollen and he is gasping lots and sitting on the bottom of the tank (200L, 9 young cichlids). We separated him from the rest of the tank a few days ago as we were told it could be stress-related (there were no other signs of sickness/problems etc). He hasn't improved and we have no idea what to do. He isn't moving at all - just taking massive gasps and sitting there, sometimes floating a little on his side and wedging himself under rocks.

All other fish are fine. We have had the water tested and its fine. There seems to be enough oxygen in the water and we even moved the pump to increase bubbling. Nothing has changed in his diet or anything.

We are thinking it might be best to put him out of this misery. If necessary, what is the most quick and humane way we can do it? He really looks like he is struggling and its absolutely heart-breaking - poor little guy.
Any advice would be very greatly appreciated!!!
Thank you!!!

[Boof86]

if oliver (docfish) reads this post he may know the problem. i believe he works at aqoutix too???? not sure. but my hunder standing is a large bump on the head is most humane...
hope he heals up tho. i lost my electric yellows this week i think do to some new rocks not being cleaned properly. was sad because two of them were holding eggs

[Mr_docfish]

Sounds like dropsy from your description (I assume by swollen head, you mean his eyes are 'popping out' or is this not the case?).

I would not bother trying to treat this individual if it is struggling and it has been some time since it last was interested in food, in this weakened state, it is very difficult to help it..

Keep an eye on the others in the tank for the next month and let me know if any come down with similar or other odd symptoms, the earlier the better.

For now, if you wish to euthanase the fish, there are several options. A hard blow to the head, severing the spine just behind the head, or if you are unsure about being able to use these methods, then put it in a small amount of water and place it in the freezer (even though it is not recognised by the RSPCA, placing it in water in the freezer is the preferred method, not just placing it in the freezer without being in water, that is what they are against, and I would be inclined to agree).

[Cawdor]

I agree with the doc, if I need to euthanase fish I use the freezer method. I only use a little bit of water so that the fish can still swim, it freezes quicker. My understanding is that at some stage they "fall asleep" so to speak and then when the water completely freezes they will die. Anyone correct me if that's wrong.
I can't bring myself to actively kill fish even though it would be quicker - too violent for me.

[Iamsam]

i find the best way of euthanizing a fish is droping it into freezing water; the shock kills them instantly; better explained here :

This method utilises the coldest water you can find - a bowl of water that has been placed in the freezer long enough for the surface to freeze is good. The surface ice is broken and the bowl taken to the dying fish.

The fish is then captured and dropped into the freezing water. The difference between the temperature of the tank and the freezing water causes an instant fatal shock to the fish nervous system stopping all organ functions instantaneously - anyone who has found themselves suddenly in water that is much colder than your body temperature will know the feeling when you initially can't breathe (people have died of heart failure under similar circumstances), it is like that but much more severe and sudden.

A variation on this is freezing alcohol (pure or vodka)

Stress is caused in the handling of the fish, but in most of the methods the fish must be handled - however this handling is brief

as seen here :http://homepage.ntlworld.com/faustus/nicoldaquaria/euthanasia.htm

Regards Sam

[Boof86]

from the same site

Alcohol

As pure as possible - vodka, tequila.

The method is that you have the alcohol at the same temperature as the water in your aquarium - the fish is introduced to the alcohol and immediately becomes overwhelmed by it.

Alcohol works like an anesthetic and is at lethal levels. The fish will instantly be paralysed and unconscious, death follows quickly due to respiratory failure.

An alternative is freezing alcohol as mentioned above - that might, just be overkill.

Recommended for: all fish

Not recommended for: fish who attend alcoholics anonymous

i had to laugh at that one. but nicer to know its got a humane rating of 100%

[MadMoorii]

Thanks everyone so much for your replies.
Well, our little yellow died without any assistance - kind of a relief, but still sad.

We still have no idea what could have killed him. His eyes were not at all bulging and only one side of his head seemed to really swell up (on further inspection of the body). There were no sores or discolouration - no clear poo or dangly things. Even his colour was good.

We have done a 50% water change on the main tank and added a general antibacterial/antifungal treatment.

Our only concern now is that our littlest electric yellow is not eating - he sucks in the food then spits it out again. Hopefully its just a phase - it's only been a couple of days.

Anyway, thanks again everyone!!!

[MadMoorii]

Hi guys,
Since I last wrote we have lost another of our electric yellows and have NO IDEA WHY. We think our last 3 may be on the way out as well.

Just to recap, we currently have:
- 3 haplochromis moorii (blue dolphins - maybe 1M 2F)
- 4 sciaenochromis ahli (electric blues - 2M 2F)
- 2 Ancistrus sp. (bristlenose catfish - maybe 1M 1F )
- 3 labidochromis caeruleus (electric yellows - no idea sex)

The tank is 4ft, with granite substrate, alot of limestone rocks and a couple of val plants. We use Aqua One Cichlid Flakes and Hikari Floating Cichlid Staple (little balls).

We have done three 40% water changes in the last week and have added Aquarium Science Broadspectrum medication on 2 occassions (1.5 weeks apart). We had our water checked and everything is normal.

All of the electric yellows are becoming very lethargic and disinterested in eating (one has almost completely stopped eating). They usually suck the food in, then spit it out again. There are NO signs of anything physically wrong with them - no swelling of anything, no oozing, no discolouration, normal coloured poo, no sores etc. None are hovering around the surface gasping - they are just sitting on the bottom of the tank or wedging themselves between rocks and staying there.

Please can someone help us? We love our yellows so much but we can't seem to stop them dying! It's awful!
Thank you!

[dazzabozza]

Worms or an internal bacterial infection perhaps??? Hopefully Oliver can provide some more help we he logs on.

[Mr_docfish]

Mmmmmm this is a strange one indeed.....

I would ignore the swollen head of the first individual (possibly not related, could have been a deformity that was not noticed originally?), and consider the common factors of the remaining yellows; such as lethargy, not eating and hiding. I assume at this point in time the other fish are doing fine. If the bristlenose are doing well, then I can assume that there is not a problem with toxin as they are generally the first to show symptoms. The food would not be off, as the other fish are fine and there are no signs of bloating. Water quality tested fine and other fish show no similar symptoms....

Possibilities:

Parasitic - Gill flukes, internal worms.
Are these yellows the smallest fish in the tank? (smaller fish are more prone to gill fluke infestation due to their size)
Are they from the same supply? (could have carried in intestinal worms, which have not yet infested the remaining fish as badly)
How long have you had these fish compared to the others? (are these fish recent additions or have you added something new recently, they could have picked something up from the other fish, or come in with something that the other fish are somewhat immune to, or have not picked up yet)

Bacterial - Infection in the gills or gut.
Again, as above; How long have you had these fish compared to the others? and are they from the same supply?
Need to inspect the gills to see if they are well coloured and not sticky or rotten
Might have to inspect a recently dead individual and look for signs of bacterial infection in the gut. (yellow or green fluid in the gut cavity or intestines)
Last possibility - Fish MB... lets not go there until all other things are looked at, or further symptoms present themselves.

Give me a bit more info in regards to the above questions so we can narrow it down a bit better, and I might have to have a look at one of the fish at a later date, particularly if they are on their last fins, but not quite dead yet. Once they are dead, it is a bit harder to see things.

[MadMoorii]

OK, I will just answer each question as you've asked them.

- these fish are the smallest in the tank, but only by a couple of mm's
- the yellows are from 2 different supplies and I know the rest of the yellows from one of the supplies is still very healthy
- I have had the yellows the longest (6 months), with the others between 4 months and 2 weeks
- the bristlenose catfish seem completely unaffected (still swimming around, sucking enthusiastically etc)
- the yellows becoming sick don't seem to coincide with the introduction of any new fish (this is not to say one of the new fish hasn't introduced something nasty though). However, we did have one electric blue die within a week of bringing him home (just didn't seem to settle) and the first yellow died within 2 weeks of that happening.
- unfortunately I have already disgarded the carcases of the dead yellows. I did check them very closely though, and to my layman's eyes, nothing stood out as strange or different

I will try and bring one of the sickies in at some stage or (if worst comes to worst), a body. We are desperate to get to the bottom of this.

[dazzabozza]

If it is parasitic (Gill flukes, internal worms) or bacterial (Infection in the gills or gut) as Oliver suggests then I'd expect fish that have had the longest exposure to start dropping off sooner. I lost a heap of tangs and malawis (plecos not affected for some reason) last Xmas due to a combination of high temps, worms and bacterial infections (most likely secondary due to the damage done by the worms). I purchased the meds (Dimetridazole & Levamisole HCL) recommended by Oliver and the tank has been sweet ever since.

It's a shame that these bugs reach our aquariums at home. I have asked some LFS if they treat their own fish. Some say they rely on their wholesalers to do it. I guess the problem is that it gets introduced other ways possibly via local breeders, private imports etc. Some stores probably don't hold their fish long enough to be treated too.

I'm now in the practice of de-worming my tanks every few months if new fish have been added during that period.


Dazza

[MadMoorii]

If it is parasitic (Gill flukes, internal worms) or bacterial (Infection in the gills or gut) as Oliver suggests then I'd expect fish that have the longest exposure to start dropping off sooner. I lost a heap of tangs and malawis (plecos not affected for same reason) last Xmas due to a combination of high temps, worms and bacterial infections (most likely secondary due to the damage done by the worms). I purchased the meds (Dimetridazole & Levamisole HCL) recommended by Oliver and the tank has been sweet ever since.

It's a shame that these bugs reach our aquariums at home. I have asked some LFS if they treat their own fish. Some say they rely on their wholesalers to do it. I guess the problem is that it gets introduced other ways possibly via local breeders, private imports etc. Some stores probably don't hold their fish long enough to be treated too.

I'm now in the practice of de-worming my tanks every few months if new fish have been added during that period.


Dazza

Hmmm, may get some Dimetridazole & Levamisole anyway and do what you do Dazza - probably save a lot of hassle. Thanks for the info!

[Mr_docfish]

Well I had a look at one of the yellows, it had a distended belly and it was breathing moderately heavily and inspection of the gills showed a very pale colour, so it was anaemic. This was a quick inspection that I would do often with minimal effect to the fish and normally the fish would breath a bit faster after the inspection, but this one just stopped breathing all together... sad, but a further indication of the serious situation that the fish was in.... This then gave me the chance to do a quick autopsy on a freshly deceased fish.
No bleeding on the exterior of the fish, except one spot in the eye (not septicaemia). No sign of internal parasitic worms. The gut cavity was filled with a clear fluid, with a slight odour (possibly due to a bacterial infection, similar to abdominal dropsy, though normally the fluid would be yellow or contain some blood). The intestines were empty (not feeding). The Spleen was not enlarged (therefore not MB). The liver was slightly enlarged and pale (fatty liver, multiple causes). The kidneys were very pale but not enlarged (not infected but possibly damaged by the anaemia)

It is hard to determine what came first, the anaemia or the fatty liver problem.

Either way there are several causes where both situations occur;
Abdominal dropsy, caused through bacteria or protozoan parasites in the gut/blood/organs. These and other parasites are often common in aquarium fish (as Dazza has mentioned) but normally do not cause any problem until something stresses the fish, or the problem takes advantage of crowded tanks, translocated fish, or introduction to other, susceptible fish species. I cannot explain why only the electric yellows have been affected, when there are other similar cichlid species in the tank. And considering that the yellows came from different breeders, this makes it even more confusing as to why they all are affected at the same time. Perhaps they are the weaker species, more inbred in Australia, compared to the other fish in the tank. One theory as mentioned by Dazza, they have been in the tank the longest, and it is possible that they have been incubating this problem for some time now. Either way, the best treatment for this would be a course of DMZ.

The other cause is foul food. Most probably, oxidised unsaturated fatty acids (fish oils) from old food. Such rancid fats can develop lipoid liver disease and severe anaemia in susceptible fish species. There is no cure for this once it causes damage. Check the manufacture/use by dates of the food. One should always feed off food within 3 months after opening a new container of food. Avoid foods that do not carry a date stamp. Be cautious of frozen foods too, though it is hard to determine sometimes if they have been defrosted or not.

I cannot think of any other problems related to this... this was a hard one to work out, the autopsy offered the best clues in this case.

I hope the DMZ works for you, though it might be too late for the other yellows if they are in the same condition as the one you bought in for me to look at. It does not hurt to treat the other fish in the mean time, just in case anyway.
Keep me updated in the next week or two on the progress.

Cheers,
Oliver

[MadMoorii]

I hope the DMZ works for you, though it might be too late for the other yellows if they are in the same condition as the one you bought in for me to look at. It does not hurt to treat the other fish in the mean time, just in case anyway.
Keep me updated in the next week or two on the progress.

Cheers,
Oliver

Well, I fed them the new food and (thankfully) everyone ate relatively heartily (except for one yellow, but he still grabbed a couple of bits). Have added the first course of DMZ and turned off the lights. I think everyone was sleeping when I left this morning, but thankfully not on their sides . Thanks again so much for your time, effort and information, Oliver. We both slept much better last night! I'll let you know how things go. You have a great team there at Aquotix!

[MadMoorii]

All fish aren't looking too good anymore. No-one's eating and they're all pretty lethargic. I wish they could tell me what was wrong! They have all changed so much in the last month and its a complete mystery to us. I have a feeling we may lose all of them.

[Mr_docfish]

Something is definitely going wrong with the tank... there seems to be something else that is affecting the health of the fish besides the food or dropsy (if it is still dropsy, then there must be something causing it). Do some water changes, and stop all feeding and treating of the fish.
I will PM you.....

[Boof86]

Something is definitely going wrong with the tank... there seems to be something else that is affecting the health of the fish besides the food or dropsy (if it is still dropsy, then there must be something causing it). Do some water changes, and stop all feeding and treating of the fish.
I will PM you.....

potentially a poorly cleaned rock?? i was getting dead yellows galore.. removed one rock i thought was suspicious as i remember i didnt clean it much then cleaned tank filters new water kept melka fix in water for a week or so etc... last fish lived on!