88 replies to this topic

[Buccal]

Ronny, yes I have in moderate depth,,,, only moderate because it gets confusing and I have limited time to study up.
I kind of absorb the relevant parts that can be correlated with ornament fish keeping.

I'm pretty sure the uptake and digestion is somewhat ok, but it's roughly 60% of terrestrial nutrient can be absorbed out of the 100%.
More than three quarters of spectrum ingredients is terrestrial vege,,, and the food does ok,,,,, but uptake of 60% explains the red waiste associated with spectrum that floats about the tank,,,,, some passes out not getting used.

I think some of these aquaculture tests are being done with using raw ingredients.
Pellet processing may prep the terrestrial vege for better uptake by the fish.
With tilapia they are unlike most other fish, hence why they are chose,,,, these fish are much more forgiving and hardier,,,, where as our ornamental fish are in need of much more careful treatment.

Because the tilapia farming is done on large scales and for countries with not much money,,,, garlic and other things may be being used because they are very cheap and very accessible.
So possibly,,, they may not be the best,,, maybe still good but very affordable.
I'm quite sure that garlic has antibacterial qualities.
But with some human drugs that fix or mask a problem sometimes causes other problems like cancers as a long term side effect.

The thing about probiotics is that it's ineffective if it goes through the heating processes with the pellet.
So the probiotic is usually added as a coating around the pellet after processing.
Nearly all probiotics will last no longer than 8 months or so as shelf life.
Even still it's argued wether its worth the effort or not.

I'd like to see those Koi set ups to,,,,
Some of those cheeky foreign countries run their rivers/streams through their systems to.
Some times we see these things as being closed systems and wondering how they do it.
Sometimes they are closed, sometimes they are partial or continual.

[werdna]

Not that I have read any of those studies as I am not that interested...

However I would think a study on any freshwater fish is more relevant than one done on marine...

As an added bonus they are a cichlid too

[Buccal]

As Ronny pointed out the decrease in lipids was documented when fed garlic on freshwater fish whilst the same was happening with salt water fish.
This decrease in lipids over a long period of time effected salt water fish with lesions to vital organs was found.
I think with the tilapia studies it's short term as they are fast growing and quickly cultivated.
Seeming I've always doubted the positive effects of garlic to be even minutely beneficial,,, summing up that documentation is enough deterrent now to not use garlic laced foods.

Edited by Buccal, 22 August 2013 - 07:57 PM.

[werdna]

Tilapia grow out

 

 

Koi Setup

[Buccal]

The benifits of grow outs or fish enclosures from being round is massive.
The sloping bottoms with drainage in the center that exits the waiste/mulm in a split second.
Less wattage is needed from using smaller pump sizes,,,, this is because the circular gentle whirl pool like motion that holds momentum constantly assisted by water returning back in at the same direction as the whirl pool is traveling.
The only negative is when it comes to having these set ups in confined spaces,,, being that round structures waiste space.
I myself own koi,,, big quality porker pigs,,,, with most of them fitting into physical characteristic categories.
Koi and ponds when done properly are just the bomb.

[waruna]

Buccal (Mark), are you still distributing New Era Foods in WA? If so, don't you think you should have the decency to let members here know of your intentions..? That you have a vested interest in condemning NLS? And it's Garlic inclusion..!

 

This whole thread is a joke! Nothing more but to condemn NLS!  The funny thing is you are about 4 years behind in your research!!!! This topic was highly debated four years ago... 

 

This is Neil's handy work, i can't match his knowledge, so i'm going to simply paste it here and provide the link to the full discussion so members here can make up their own minds..

 

 

G'day gents, please allow me to introduce myself, and add my Canadian 2 cents worth to this discussion.

First off I will preface my following comments by stating up front that while I do have a vested interest in the fish food industry, I have a much larger vested interest in keeping my fish healthy. I'm not here to hard sell anything, to anyone, only to clear up what I see as a great deal of misinformation on the subject of garlic, and fish feed. 


Some pretty strong stuff here - garlic kills fish - It's a GIMMICK that helps to sell fish food - hijacked by the sales/advertising people in the aquarium hobby industry (who most likely have NO IDEA of what it actually is/does), just because of it's money-making potential...

I would like to start by addressing the comment below; 

Quote:

These are obviously FRESH water fish...

Actually no, these would be marine fish, some of them considered to be ultra sensitive, and "doomed in captivity" by many hobbyists. Fish such as Moorish Idol, Rock Beauty, Majestic Angels, Achilles Tang, etc. 
Pablo Tepoot has been keeping marine fish most of his life, and at near 70 yrs of age, with approx 5,000 gallons worth of SW running in the tanks at his home, and having authored a book on marine fish, I think that it's safe to say that he knows a thing or two about keeping marine fish thriving in captivity. And yes, he also keeps a few freshwater fish. His farm consists of ...... 120 ponds (approximately 30,000 gal. each), 1500 concrete vats (250gal.-500gal. each) and 1,000 40 gal. fry tanks. 
I think you'll be hard pressed to find another fish food manufacturer that has the personal "hands on" experience as Pablo Tepoot, be it with marine, or freshwater fish.


The internet is a wonderful thing, I'm young enough to take it for granted, and old enough to know that the info one finds is only as good as the source that supplies it.

With all due respect to Wombat, allow me to counter his/her various comments that were posted above.

Quote:

Most terrestrial plants have a completely different lipid profile for what is required by marine fishes causing heart and liver lesions

While this is very true, I think that a very important part of this equation has been left out, that being the inclusion rate of lipids via the addition of adding garlic to most commercial feeds (@ 1-5%) wouldn't even register on the overall lipid percentage of the food. 

I don't know of any manufacturers adding massive amounts of garlic to their commercial feed, so please let's not judge all products that may contain garlic, as a single entity. With regards to commercial foods, the "lipid" content derived from the garlic used in most formulas (garlic powder), would be almost nonexistent. Something along the lines of 0.0001%

To think that this will somehow have negative effects on the health of a fish, be it short term, or long term, due to the lipid content, is quite frankly, ridiculous. 

Using this same type of logic one could make the same accusations about Vitamin A, due to the fact that at high enough levels it too can become toxic to fish. No nutritionist would recommend completely eliminating vitamin A, B, D, E and K from the diet based only on the fact that at inappropriate levels it can be harmful and evenly deadly to a fish. 


Please keep in mind that almost everything and anything can become toxic at high enough levels.

Trust me, no manufacturer of dry fish foods is adding 400ug/kg of purified allacin to their feed, such as in your feed trials. And even if at some point one manufacturer does, that doesn't mean that everyone should suddenly throw out ALL the babies with the bath water! 

Run several controlled feed trials using lipids from marine sources, such as what some of these fish would experience in the wild, yet in excessive amounts, and I can assure that those results will be quite damning as well. Does excessive fat deposition in the viscera & tissues leading to progressive degeneration of liver cells, sound about right? 

It all boils down to proper balance, and moderation. Remove one strand from a woven basket, and the whole basket can unravel. 


The reports that were posted above by Wombat have to do with fish raised for human consumption, and the terrestrial lipid content is obviously very high in those studies as the commercial fish farms are constantly in search of reducing feed costs via the removal of fish protein & fish lipids, and replacing them with grain & grain by-products. This is precisely why these tests took place. They are looking for less costly alternatives! Also, most commercial salmon operations tend to use fairly high lipid content in their feed to ensure that the more costly protein (fish meal) is spared for growth, and not utilized as an energy source. 

The studies that were posted above have simply shown what can happen IF one feeds excessive amounts of these lipids to those species of fish. But again, these studies have nothing to do with garlic inclusion rates in food, and the resulting lipids that would be present from that particular food stuff (garlic powder) in a commercial food. 


This type of "commercial farm" research has been taking place for decades, due to the largest expense of most commercial operations being the cost of the feed. If one can reduce the overall feed costs, or lower the feed conversion ratio, on larger farms those savings can equal hundreds of thousands of dollars. (in a single year!)
So the farms keep running tests & studying the results in the hopes that one day they can replace the majority of the more costly marine proteins (fish meal & fish oil) with less costly grain & grain by-products. 



And no offence to Steven Pro, but in my humble opinion the author has used a rather broad brush when referring to commercial manufacturers. Also, some of the info in that article is now somewhat outdated. Steven Pro's article was based on nothng more than one persons personal opinion, on a subject that he is most certainly not qualified to speak on as any type of expert. 

Over the past decade there has been a number of studies involving garlic and fish food and the anecdotal evidence with regards to feeding fish allicin complex (the active ingredient in garlic) to rid them of parasites appeared to be quite strong. The following is a link to a more recent study that confirms what some people have been saying all along. http://www.scielo.br...n2/v12n2a03.pdf

A. M. Shalaby et al. EFFECTS OF GARLIC (Allium sativum) AND CHLORAMPHENICOL ON GROWTH PERFORMANCE, PHYSIOLOGICAL PARAMETERS AND SURVIVAL OF NILE TILAPIA (Oreochromis niloticus).

J. Venom. Anim. Toxins incl. Trop. Dis., 2006, 12, 2, p.196

Fish Hatchery and Reproductive Physiology Department, Central Laboratory for Aquaculture Research, Abbassa, Abo-Hammad, Sharkia, Egypt


In this particular study the inclusion of garlic powder at a rate of 3% has shown to increase the overall digestibility of protein, carbohydrates, and fat, as well as to lower the total bacteria count within the intestine, muscles, as well as the tank water itself.


And another recent study ...............

Effect of Allium sativum on the immunity and survival of Labeo rohita infected with Aeromonas hydrophila


S. Sahu, B. K. Das, B. K. Mishra, J. Pradhan and N. Sarangi 

Aquatic Animal Health Division, Central Institute of Freshwater Aquaculture, Kausalyaganga, Bhubaneswar, India

Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies


Summary

Quote:

The aim of this study was to evaluate dietary dosages of garlic on the immune response and disease resistance against infections due to the opportunistic pathogen Aeromonas hydrophila in Labeo rohita fingerlings. Garlic, Allium sativum, was incorporated into the diets (0%, 0.1%, 0.5% and 1.0%) of rohu, L. rohita fingerlings (10 ± 2 g). Every 20 days, different biochemical (serum total protein, albumin, globulin, albumin : globulin ratio, blood glucose), haematological (WBC, RBC and haemoglobin content) and immunological (superoxide anion production, lysozyme activity and serum bactericidal activity) parameters were evaluated. Superoxide anion production, lysozyme, serum bactericidal, serum protein and albumin were enhanced in garlic treated groups compared with the control group. After 60 days, fish were challenged with A. hydrophila and mortality (%) was recorded up to day 10 post-challenge. Survival decreased in control group (57%) up to day 10 after infection. However, this was increased in the garlic treatment group, i.e. 85% survivability in the 1 g garlic kg−1 (B group) and 5 g garlic kg−1 (C group), and 71% survivability in the 10 g garlic kg−1 (D group), respectively. These results indicate that Allium sativum stimulates the immunity and makes L. rohita more resistant to infection by A. hydrophila.

FYI - I have personally seen numerous marine fish (including some very delicate species) that have consumed garlic via commercial food for 10+ yrs, with no ill effects. Quite the opposite actually, a decade later & these same fish were still thriving in captivity. 

So I wouldn't be so quick to judge with regards to garlic not being an immunostimulant in fish. What Pablo Tepoot has been stating about garlic for the past 15+ yrs, science is just recently catching up with. 

Some of the most prestigious public marine systems in North America feed commercial food that contains garlic. Joe Yaiullo, one of the pioneers of reef keeping in the USA, and the curator/co-founder of Atlantis Marine World in NY has been feeding such a dry food for several years. You can view his 20,000 gallon reef set up (the largest reef tank in North America, and 4th largest in the world) in the link below, where he also mentions the various feed that he uses.

Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine - Featured Aquarium: Atlantis Marine World 
Joe Yaiullo is one of the world’s most highly regarded Aquarium authorities. He has consulted with many public Aquariums worldwide, and has also presented reef-keeping lectures throughout the United States, Canada, and Europe.

Bob Fenner, who is widely known through his various published works on marine aquatics, as well as his wetwebmedia website, has openly stated that a commercial brand of feed (that contains garlic) is not only a nutritionally complete food, in his opinion it is the best food, period. Even though he has no financial interest whatsoever in this product, or the parent company. Go figure. 

Recently Charles Delbeek M.Sc., senior biologist at the Steinhart Aquarium in San Francisco has also begun feeding a commercial food (that contains garlic) at their facility, and these are just a few examples of some of the more advanced marine keepers in the USA that apparently are having very positive results with these commercial formulas.

To quote a long term mentor of mine - "an expert is someone who knows so much, they have no room left in their head to learn anything new".


cheers

 

 

Read the full discussion here.. 

 

http://www.marineaqu...b&t=8915&page=2

 

I'm editing this page to provide  a link to the first discussion which started this whole debate. Involving the so called  "The scientist" who performed this study??!

 

http://www.ultimater...ad.php?t=288311

[waruna]

Pablo is a very knowledgable person (the god of spectrum).
I've observed a lot of his presence on the American forums for fish.
He promotes a lot of info in support that directly links to spectrum all the time.
From what I see,,,,, there is a world outside of spectrum.

 

 

Funny you mentioned that Pablo is knowledgeable.. Some of his personal achievements below:

http://nlsfishfood.c...id=26&Itemid=59

 

Care to share your achievements, if there's any of course?

 

In case you've missed it, Pablo's African Cichlid breeding farm ( 2 x 5 acre blocks) consists of:

 

120 x ponds 30,000 gal each (roughly 113,400 liters each)

1500 x Concrete vats (grow out) 250 gal -300 gal each (roughly 1050 liters)

1000 x 40 gal fry tanks (roughly 150 liters)

 

Slightly bigger than your 50-75 tank breeding setup at home hey?? LOl

 

[Buccal]

I'm not going to run this gauntlet, that's for sure lol,.
I not a fighter nor do I argue unless I'm slandered in a personal fashion.

I said Pablo was acknowledgable because he is,,, and above just about anybody,,, but so what ,,, lol.
(50-75) tanks, come on, you know that's barely half way there.
It would take three Australia's to get enough customers to buy what Pablo's farm could produce in Two months.

I've always doubted the benefits of garlic for ornamental purposes as I always have said to you in the past.
Spectrum is a very good food,,,, I've used it most of my serious fish keeping years then 4 years solid in my breeding.
There are a few foods on the market now.
I know your a hard driver of your product,,, at a lot of times over flamboyant ready to rumble.

I have learnt that a lot of fish foods has their pro's and cons.
And choices in food types for the aquarist is a bit like that of a golfer,,, in know, sounds bazzar, but I'll go on.
A golfer will draw a club in relation to the drive or get the necessary outcome to get the ball where it needs to go.
The home aquarium can have all sorts of requirements that are all different to each other.
For example,,, two foot fish cruising in a tank as opposed to a tank jam packed with malawis.
Merely saying your food is the ducks nuts for all doesn't cut it.

Consumers have the right to have variety to select from in relation to their requirements as a golfer has a choice of which stick is going to suit the situation.

I merely bought up the garlic subject purely for the topic of it,,, just because it's in Spectrum, it doesn't mean I was having a go at spectrum in any way.
Even though I may have mentioned spectrum, not sure, but so what anyway.
I was lucky enough to get the home made recipe from Ken Harvey for Malawi/Tang food which I feed once a month that's jammed pack with human grade vitamins and minerals.
I opted to leave out garlic on my last batch as I personally doubt the benefits and I also later come across that research piece.

My sump filter is 2.7m long by .9m wide filled with black matalla as you've seen.
Every second day I use lysofoss and inject it through the matalla to break down the build up.
Using lysofoss and using spectrum,,,, I was pulling out my matalla matting every month to clean of the red/brown build up that would inhibit water flow and cause problems If I didn't clean.
Still using lysofoss, I switched to New Era which also allowed me to drop a third day of feeding per week.
Since using New Era,,,, December last year,,,, I haven't cleaned my matalla matting once,,,, the lysofoss breaks the build up down in time before the next lot.
Also my foot long predator Malawi fish condition up quick and hold condition well on New Era.

You see like the golfer,, I had a choice for my situation.
I I have only spoken in other threads about the logistics of food and not once slandered spectrum, spectrum is good and it has it's place, but New Era is good also, and it to has its place.

Yes,,, it's true, I'm the sales rep for New Era,,, but I'm not going to ram it in people's faces.
Within time, like east oz, people may try this New Era and will find its niche amongst other foods for the aquarists choice.
Hopefully people will see the benefits of cleaner water and less maintenance if using this food correctly.

Waruna, I think your a good bloke, and I hope sour grapes don't occur, because I prefer sweet grapes of lip smacking goodness

Edited by Buccal, 24 August 2013 - 02:28 PM.

[waruna]

Mark, judging by your last reply you obviously don't want to discuss the main topic, Garlic?

 

It goes to show how little you really understand about the use of Garlic in fish feeds, and the so called study that you tried to link!

 

 

It causes internal lesions to the fishes organs.

 

Can you provide me details of a single study proving your theory? 

 

You do understand the difference between pure allicin and Garlic powder? 

 

 

 

Below are some various conclusions drawn about allicin from garlic scientists at the "First World Congress on the Health Significance of Garlic and Garlic Constituents", held in Washington, D.C. in Aug. 1990.

"Contrary to the popular myth that a garlic product must contain allicin to be beneficial, allicin has not been conclusively proven to be responsible for garlic's known health benefits. Most of the garlic or garlic products that have been based to demonstrate garlic health effects do not contain significant amounts of allicin.To date, well over 100 compounds have been identified in garlic preparations. 

Though individual compounds, such as S-allyl cysteine, have shown activity in studies and are absorbed by the body, it is likely that a synergism of various compounds provide the benefits of garlic. This is in agreement with Dr. Koch, a renowned Austrian scientist who stated that the activity of various sulfur compounds could not alone be responsible for the benefits of garlic and fixation on a single group of components can lead to mistakes and wrong conclusions."

 

see the difference? 

 

And no documentation for scientific experimentation on record to proving it boosts fishes immune systems like the fish food claim.
It's like a wives tail belief that has turned into demand, and manufacturers are adding it for improved marketing,,,,, 

 

 

 

Wives tail??? I think you meant to say Wives tales.. Lol.

 

Isn't it fair to say you have no idea what you were talking about? Simply trying to push potential customers towards your product..? 

 

 

 

 

I've observed a lot of his presence on the American forums for fish.
He promotes a lot of info in support that directly links to spectrum all the time.
From what I see,,,,, there is a world outside of spectrum.

 

You are wrong again, you've mistaken R.D (Neil) for Pablo..

 

 

 

A tilapia fed garlic that grows to eating/harvest size in 8 months, versus ornamental fish fed garlic living in the aquarium for 8 years or more.
these internal organ lesions as discussed in the info I put up, begin a bit further on down the track. 

 

What info? What happens further down the track? 

 

 

 

I would think the long term exposure to garlic may be where the over dose would begin,,,, maybe two thirds through the fishes life ??.

 

Hahahaha! Like i said in my previous post, all these statements are to condemn NLS, for your own benefit, that is to promote the food you are distributing   You don't have anything to back your theories! 

 

 

 

I'm sure this is what Spectrum has done. (wheat meal to kelp) hence the problems of their sinking pellets are floating in some batches.

 

Mark, you are wrong again..! The floating issue is due to the pellet size..

 

 

 

 

I'm also sure that any aquarist doing the right thing with his/her set ups for fish,,, shouldn't need the aid of the so called garlic effects which would have to be minimal anyway.
Still plenty of fish get sick and white spot or what have you,,, whilst having a diet of garlic laced dry feeds.

 

Funny you mentioned this, i only remember you buying Thera A from me. Nothing but more verbal diarrhea to condemn NLS!  

 

 

[waruna]

 

 

More than three quarters of spectrum ingredients is terrestrial vege,,, and the food does ok,,,,, but uptake of 60% explains the red waiste associated with spectrum that floats about the tank,,,,, some passes out not getting used.

 

May i ask how you came to this conclusion? 60%.

 

Mark, this is starting to get really embarrassing don't you think?

 

 

 

Seeming I've always doubted the positive effects of garlic to be even minutely beneficial,,, summing up that documentation is enough deterrent now to not use garlic laced foods. 

 

Obviously you want more people buying your brand? Hahaha!

 

 

 

I've always doubted the benefits of garlic for ornamental purposes as I always have said to you in the past

 

No, this is a simple lie, you've only bought Thera A formula from me. 

 

 

 

I have learnt that a lot of fish foods has their pro's and cons.
And choices in food types for the aquarist is a bit like that of a golfer,,, in know, sounds bazzar, but I'll go on.
A golfer will draw a club in relation to the drive or get the necessary outcome to get the ball where it needs to go.
The home aquarium can have all sorts of requirements that are all different to each other.
For example,,, two foot fish cruising in a tank as opposed to a tank jam packed with malawis.
Merely saying your food is the ducks nuts for all doesn't cut it.

 

I think you've failed to notice NLS comes in about 40 different formulas, and about 10 different pellet sizes/various different forms!

 

 

 

I merely bought up the garlic subject purely for the topic of it,,, just because it's in Spectrum, it doesn't mean I was having a go at spectrum in any way.

 

I think you did, it's obvious from your posts.

 

 

 

Hopefully people will see the benefits of cleaner water and less maintenance if using this food correctly.

 

Hahaha! When using other foods correctly as you've pointed out it is quite possible to maintain aquariums such as these, not just the one you are selling 

 

http://www.advanceda...2007/2/aquarium

 

 

 

Yes,,, it's true, I'm the sales rep for New Era,,, but I'm not going to ram it in people's faces.

 

What amazes me the most is the fact you didn't share this information with this forum for so long! 

[Buccal]

no thanks

[Ronny]

Hmm, I genuinely thought this topic was a discussion of the use of garlic on fish foods.

Not who can make one seller look bad before the other.

 

 

Personally, I have found a few interesting articles on the use of garlic and as a result, I have decided to use a mix of NLS and New Era but for my situation, I keep tropheus and am looking at using more New Era than NLS. 

 

Unfortunately to date, there has not been any scientific studies conducted on the use of garlic on ORNAMENTAL fish.

Which is why a lot of the debate on garlic pro or cons is really irrelevant.

 

 

 

 

Mark, you are wrong again..! The floating issue is due to the pellet size..

 

 

 

 

 

 

Waruna, I find it odd that you say multiple times that the floating issue with NLS is only from pellet size and that nothing other than the size has changed, when NLS themself have stated that they have changed the formula which has less fillers and more vegetable content.

The pellet size wouldn't be the reason it floats as opposed to before. 

 

This alone raises questions..

 

 

Hahahaha! Like i said in my previous post, all these statements are to condemn NLS, for your own benefit, that is to promote the food you are distributing   You don't have anything to back your theories! 

 

 

 

 

If you have any studies to back your theories, I and many others would be very interested to see them.

 

 

 

 

Don't take this personally, but I'm very cynical when distributors are trying to talk up products. Which is why I ask questions. 

 

When it comes to products like NLS and New Era, the products should really speak for themself. Not have to be defended in such a manner it makes you look unprofessional and down right bitchy.

 

 

 

 

[Ronny]

As Ronny pointed out the decrease in lipids was documented when fed garlic on freshwater fish whilst the same was happening with salt water fish.
This decrease in lipids over a long period of time effected salt water fish with lesions to vital organs was found.
I think with the tilapia studies it's short term as they are fast growing and quickly cultivated.
Seeming I've always doubted the positive effects of garlic to be even minutely beneficial,,, summing up that documentation is enough deterrent now to not use garlic laced foods.

 

I don't quite understnad how you have come to the conclusion that the terrestrial lipids cause the legions?

 

The original link you provided stated that MARINE fish do not contain the enzymes to digest the lipids. 

However, the garlic itself, helps aid the digestion or at least reduces the amount of lipids.

The way I interpreted the article you linked was that an excess of lipids is what becomes harmful over time.  The study I linked on FARMED FRESH WATER fish, shows conclusive evidence that the amount of lipids in the fishs system is reduced when a garlic or allicin supplement is added to the diet.  

 

Have I misinterpreted it?

[Buccal]

Terrestrial plant lipids are well known to cause heart and liver lesions in marine fish. The problem with feeding terrestrial plant oils (not just garlic but any terrestrial plant oil) to reef fish is problematic due the nature of the lipids the fish do not possess the enzymes to digest them correctly and this leads to fatty deposits and serious pathological changes in the heart and liver of fish that are fed these lipids. Although these are not instantly fatal they cause chronic change to these organs and long term deterioration in the health of the fish. Granted much of this his work is done on farmed fish, but it is a well known phenomena and here are some of the research papers that detail this problem.

It was the above paragraph that originally made me wonder how or why it would be different for salt water fish compared to fresh water fish.
I don't have time to cut n paste comparisons,,,,,
Also wondering the uptake ability of the fish with terrestrial versus aquatic plant proteins.

I make my own food to feed my fish one day a month.
I jam pack it with human grade minerals and vitamins which is meant to benefit reproduction.
I use a staggering variety of terrestrial vegetable in this mix.
So my bringing up all this has nothing to do with New Era versus Spectrum.
As you said Ronny,,, it gets tried and tested by customers and it's up to the individual to choose.
I stay well under the radar and do not spin spools of any kind in any preaching form.
I was hoping that someone had already wondered about these things and gained some knowledge already.

Wether I'm right or not in saying this,,,, this is my understanding from looking into it years ago.
Please, I'm not causing argument or portraying, just wanting to share or obtain other known knowledges.

My understanding is that terrestrial plant proteins are not completely usable by fish, but it's still valuable with still a large percentage of uptake.
But the the limited percentage that doesn't get up taken is made up for by adding more terrestrial plant protein in.
So the smallish unusable percentage that doesn't get used by the fish is passed out as a partially processed percentage being part of the poo.
This creates extra waiste.
The fishes organs spend more time processing more protein to get more out of,,, so the organs are clocking up the kilometers and maybe wearing out before fishes full age (the lesions ??? maybe ???).

Where as aquatic plant proteins is fully absorbed so a standard smaller amount is needed to meet protein percentage requirements.
Thus organs not working over time.

Again,, please this subject is purely about this subject,,, and I'm not interested in fighting as most other people as well as myself find agro a turn off.

[Ronny]

Thanks for not biting either Buccal and trying to keep this a good thread.

 

I understand that marine fish do have a different "system" to fresh water fish so I still don't think studies on reef fish etc are really relevant.

 

The reason I feel it wouldn't be relevant and shouldn't be ruled out for all fish is because there are a number of fish that do eat terrestrial plants.

 

Again, I still don't see how the allicin can be seen as a negative as it was shown that fish that did consume it didn't have as much lipids in their system compared to the ones that weren't fed allicin supplements. Therefor, shouldn't have as many issues with lipids?

 

There was another study I read which I am struggling to re find that stated that garlic or similar supplements only become harmful over long term in excessive amounts.  I believe it stated it became harmful in excess of 10% of the dietary intake which is alot. I doubt any food would have anywhere near that.

You'd be vurtually feeding a clove a week lol.

 

When I find it again, I'll post the link. 

[Buccal]

A fair while ago I also saw something on excessive feeding garlic long term.
The thing is, most studies are based on Tilapia farming which these species are chosen for rapid growth in amazing short times.
The goal with the raising of these is being as economical as possible,,,, so substituting for easier/cheaper food supply cannot be confused with what is actually best for long term health benefits which is needed in ornamental fish to show vigor and vivid coloration.

Commercial aquaculture feeds/pellets are designed for rapid growth for plate fish,,,, the same manufacturers also make a more expensive grade food that is for the breeding stock.
Neither of these contain garlic that I'm aware of.

I'm still quite skeptical that garlic would curve sickness or disease in any noticeable way.
Though in the past I used foods with garlic in it almost exclusively.

True health comes from clean pathogen free water and correct type and feeding frequency of foods.
My last goal added to above was to limit waiste production which is now well appointed to.
I feed a lot less food and changed to different foods in different specie areas.
Using lysofoss, a man cultured benefical bacteria I have found to be more compatible in breaking down waiste with certain food use.

[Ronny]

A fair while ago I also saw something on excessive feeding garlic long term.
The thing is, most studies are based on Tilapia farming which these species are chosen for rapid growth in amazing short times.
The goal with the raising of these is being as economical as possible,,,, so substituting for easier/cheaper food supply cannot be confused with what is actually best for long term health benefits which is needed in ornamental fish to show vigor and vivid coloration.

 

 

I'm aware the studies are done in farm fish which is why long term issues aren't really studied but I still think it holds more relevance than studies on reef fish. 

Commercial aquaculture feeds/pellets are designed for rapid growth for plate fish,,,, the same manufacturers also make a more expensive grade food that is for the breeding stock.
Neither of these contain garlic that I'm aware of.

I'm still quite skeptical that garlic would curve sickness or disease in any noticeable way.
Though in the past I used foods with garlic in it almost exclusively.

 

From what I understand, it doesn't  "cure" sickness or disease but is proven to have antiparisitic properties.

The studies I linked earlier also show this.

 

True health comes from clean pathogen free water and correct type and feeding frequency of foods.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself but to do so, one must find out what the correct tyope of feed is and what's best for their fish.  Hence the discussion

 

My last goal added to above was to limit waiste production which is now well appointed to.
I feed a lot less food and changed to different foods in different specie areas.
Using lysofoss, a man cultured benefical bacteria I have found to be more compatible in breaking down waiste with certain food use.

 

 

[Buccal]

Yes, I only believed garlic to increase preventative measure of sickness and parasitic disease,,,, which really make up a lot of whats encountered.
Over time though I still heard of a lot of cases of white spot outbreaks whilst on a diet with incorporated garlic.

From looking at home made food recipes, it seems that green peas are made as a main substitute for vege protein.
With some of the more basic recipes having prawn only as animal protein.
I've also looked right into the ill effects prawn causes if not bought to a high enough temperature.
A preservative used after capture to stop them blackening is used as well as collection points being polluted,,, and as we all know the scavengers are effected greatly.
Most importantly is something that hasn't been considered when feeding raw or uncooked frozen foods,,,, and thts thiaminase poisoning.
A much needed vitamin called thiamine is valuable for keeping the metobolisms of any living thing in good shape and order.
A useless and dangerous vitamin is thiaminase,,,, and this is taken up in place of thiamine blocking out the thiamine uptake.
Thus the degenerative onslaught of the metabolism leading to rapid malnourishment and debilitating outcomes ending with death.

This actually happens in the wild to larger fish occasionally as particular prey is high in thiaminase.
Thiaminase is amplified after defrosting from the freezing process.
A lot of bivalves and small fish high levels of thiaminase,, but prawns the worst.

Thiaminase is not a sudden poisoning but a slow build up till levels are high then it's rapid down hill fom there.
I know about this because the first ray pup I ever got loved its prawn and that's what I fed a lot of.
After months, it died of sudden ray death,,,, with no apparent reason.
Later I discovered thiaminase and it's nasty doings.

When googled thiaminase poisoning in ornamental fish,,, some handy lists of what's high in thiaminase come up.
So when feeding raw keep these listed things to a balanced minimum.
Thiaminase is partially cancelled out by vegetable matter.
F/W stingrays over come thiaminase poisoning in the wild most of the time by eating rotten leaf litter.
Change of topic a bit,,, but a stem shoot warranted it. Lol

[waruna]

 

 

If you have any studies to back your theories, I and many others would be very interested to see them.

 

Tilapia nilotica is a Cichlid, correct?

 

http://www.idosi.org...fms1(1)09/8.pdf

 

 

In conclusion, it can be suggested that, addition of garlic in any form to fish diet can promote growth rate, decrease mortality rate and increase the antioxidant activity in fish. 

 

 

Waruna, I find it odd that you say multiple times that the floating issue with NLS is only from pellet size and that nothing other than the size has changed, when NLS themself have stated that they have changed the formula which has less fillers and more vegetable content.

The pellet size wouldn't be the reason it floats as opposed to before. 

 

This alone raises questions..

 

Hi Ronny,

 

I'm referring to the stock currently available in AUS. As matter of fact the formula has been changing for the past few years, not so much the ingredients, just the percentages.

 

The main floating issue is with the size of the pellets (currently available in AUS) , they were cut a little bigger by the new machine. The decision to change  ingredient percentages were made around the same time, that is why there is this confusion now. If you read my first post on ACE regarding this i explained this straightaway.  A letter was distributed by the manufacturer around the same time i received my last shipment explaining the future changes to the formula. The new batches with the formula changes will have different labels and weights explaining the higher concentrations. 

 

 

 

 

When it comes to products like NLS and New Era, the products should really speak for themself. Not have to be defended in such a manner it makes you look unprofessional and down right bitchy.

 

What  you are suggesting is  that i keep quiet when statements like below are made..?

 It causes internal lesions to the fishes organs.

 

 

 

 

summing up that documentation is enough deterrent now to not use garlic laced foods. 

 

Specially coming from another distributor of a fish food..?

[Ronny]

I've acknowledged the fact the fact that the study on tilapia are based on farm fish that are not intended to live long. Just grow fast so they can be eaten. There are no studies on the long term affect in ornamental fish.

That study is just as useful as the one that is conducted on reef fish over long term which does prove it can cause legions on the organs.

Both are as irrelevant as each other in regards to ornamental fish but are all we can go off.


Are you really suggesting that the floating issue is purely due to the pellet size? I find that hard to believe. If the formula was exactly the same, the smaller pellet would float too.
I have witnessed this problem myself recently with a new cichlid formula I purchased and quite frankly, it is frustrating and a downfall to NLS.

I'm not saying you have to keep quiet. There are ways to support your product and do it intelligently and professionally.


Regardless who he is, this has been an ongoing discussion. A lot of the research was done years ago so some fresh discussion may bring some new information.
But it won't happen if people just whinge and make personal attacks.