88 replies to this topic

[RD.]

This whole topics problem was that it was based on some very misleading information, in what I personally viewed as an alarmist manner.

 

 

It causes internal lesions to the fishes organs.
And no documentation for scientific experimentation on record to proving it boosts fishes immune systems like the fish food claim.
It's like a wives tail belief that has turned into demand, and manufacturers are adding it for improved marketing,,,,,
 

 

 

 

And on that note, are you now willing to admit that you were wrong, and that using garlic as an additive in fish feed is much more than just a marketing gimmick based on an old wives tale? And that there clearly is scientific documentation proving that the addition of garlic to fish feed at appropriate levels does in fact boost the immune system of fish, and act as an immunostimulant just as claimed by some fish food manufacturers?

 

 

Forget about who sells what, just stick to the subject at hand and we can end this discussion and part ways friends.   Consumers of all brands of fish food should be aware of the facts surrounding this ingredient, don't you agree?  

Edited by RD., 09 September 2013 - 03:26 AM.

[Poncho]

Geez buccal, if you crawl any further up rd's arse, we may not be able to grab hold of your feet to pull you out!

This topic is going in circles, people can work out what's going on easily enough. Let it rest already

[Buccal]

Yeah nice one Poncho.
As I said, I know who RD is and what he stands for, I wouldn't even try to battle him on a scientific basis.

That original link that was put up, come across to me as these problems existed in salt water fish and maybe not freshwater fish.
What I was really looking at,,,,, was there a difference between fresh and salt water fish when it comes to the intake of the discussed foods.

But RD is saying its a wives tail for both fresh and salt.
So yes RD, I do retract from restating what I saw in the wives tail documentation.

I kept getting fueled when I kept getting told I was out to make trouble,,,, unbelievable.

But we could have got to the bottom of this quicker, I would think.

[RD.]

These problems DO NOT exist in saltwater fish either, unless one is feeding a purified form of fresh garlic, as took place in that study.  The issue, as I have painstakingly described over & over again involves terrestrial based plant lipids - which is NOT an issue when a fish food manufacturer is adding somewhere in the order of 1-5% dry garlic powder to their feed.  The overall lipid content of that quantity of garlic, in that form of garlic, wouldn't even make a tiny blip on the lipid content radar.

 

Honestly, is that concept too difficult to grasp? 

 

When I posted to dear Wombat that I personally knew of numerous marine fish that had been eating a commercial fish food that contained garlic for over a decade, with no health issues whatsoever he poo-poo'd my comment, suggesting that some of these fish live to be 25 yrs or more in the wild, so a decade long feed trial proved nothing.  Right, but his 3 week feed trial using an ingredient that is not even used in commercial food, proved what exactly?  

 

This entire discussion has become idiotic.  

 

I'm going to post this one last time for you, Buccal. Please read it slowly.

 

 

 

 

 

With regards to the concerns that have been brought up in the past regarding negative health issues from garlic .......


The only true scientific study that I'm aware of where a negative conclusion was reached when feeding garlic (a purified form of allicin) to marine fish, was due to terrestrial based lipids being bad for a fish, which is true, if used in excess. A potential problem if one uses fresh garlic or garlic oil over an extended period of time, a total non issue if one uses a commercial feed where garlic powder is being used. The inclusion rate of lipids via the addition of adding garlic to most commercial feeds (@ 1-5%) wouldn't even register on the overall lipid percentage of the food.

With regards to commercial foods, the "lipid" content derived from the garlic used in most formulas (garlic powder), would be almost nonexistent. Something along the lines of 0.0001%

To think that this will somehow have a negative effect on the health of a fish, be it short term, or long term, due to the lipid content, is quite frankly, ridiculous.

Using this same type of logic one could make the same accusations about Vitamin A, due to the fact that at high enough levels it too can become toxic to fish.

Garlic has been used for centuries for its anthelmintic properties, and contains bioactive compounds that thus far have clearly been proven to have a probiotic effect on fish. (see cited references in previous posts)

 

 

Happy fishkeeping!

[Buccal]

Mate, I got you, and believed on both salt and fresh many threads ago.
I was stating what I originally was thinking at the very beginning,,,, jeeez

[Ronny]

Thanks for your input Neil, that's pretty much the kind of discussion I was hoping to read.

There's enough info there now for people to make their own mind up on the topic.

 

Can the mods please clean this thread up so at least it looks like a discussion? 

Really all you'd have to do is delete Warunas comments and my replies directed to him lol.

[Karlos]

I found some great info on this thread and I am definstley the wiser from reading it. I use NLS and and now even happier that I do. I have only been keeping fish for maybe 6 months so I am always after more information and got a heap from this thread.

 

Cheers Karl

[RD.]

Glad to help, gents. 

 

 

Seeing as it was a link to ultimatereef where this all started, I'm going to post a portion of my summation that I posted there approx 1 year ago when this topic reared its head, again.

 

Not to beat a dead horse, but even the research papers that the scientist posted had no real relevance to tropical fish feed, and/or tropical fish. Those studies involved cold-water fish (salmon) that are known to not be able to assimilate large amounts of carbohydrate of any kind,  and a diet that consisted of massive amounts of plant matter. (as much as 50% of the diet)

 

 

 

 

 

Wombats comments on this forum were regarding lipid (fat) content from terrestrial based plant matter ..... period, end of story.

From one of his previous comments on this forum.

 

 

Terrestrial plant lipids are well known to cause heart and liver lesions in marine fish. The problem with feeding terrestrial plant oils (not just garlic but any terrestrial plant oil) to reef fish is problematic due the nature of the lipids the fish do not possess the enzymes to digest them correctly and this leads to fatty deposits and serious pathological changes in the heart and liver of fish that are fed these lipids. Although these are not instantly fatal they cause chronic change to these organs and long term deterioration in the health of the fish. Granted much of this his work is done on farmed fish, but it is a well known phenomena and here are some of the research papers that detail this problem.

 

He then went on to cite a number of research papers, involving not garlic powder, or the lipid content of any fish food product containing garlic powder, but papers where rapeseed oil, linseed oil, and olive oil, were fed to salmon. Also, in the papers cited they were using the plant extracts as a primary portion of the diet, or a VERY large percentage of a mixed diet (such as 50/50 with fish meal).

As I have stated repeatedly since joining this forum - the negative results found in those studies are not new to science, or aquaculture, and I have agreed on this point many a time over the years, on this forum & others. Very few fish that we keep in captivity do well on oils derived from terrestrial based plant matter - especially marine species. It doesn't matter if that oil comes from rapeseed, linseed, olives, corn, peanuts, or garlic.

Fish utilize lipids as a source of energy, and the main bulk of lipid content should always be derived from marine animal sources, not from terrestrial based plant matter. There is no argument about that, nor has there ever been - this has all been well documented for many years.

Is everyone clear on that?


The problem with Wombat's research, is he has never once tested commercial foods (certainly not the brand that I feed) for lipid content from garlic powder, and any potential health risks, because as previously stated once mixed in the formula that lipid source doesn't even register on the radar. We're not talking 50%, 10%, or even 2 or 3% - with regards to commercial foods, the "lipid" content derived from the garlic used in most formulas (garlic powder), would be almost nonexistent. Something along the lines of 0.0001% of the total lipid content in the food.

Therefore, using Wombat's conclusions, and studies cited, including his own research, there is zero concern for any of the negative health issues involved if one is feeding a diet that contains a very small inclusion rate of dry garlic powder. There is not a single shred of evidence that proves or even suggests otherwise.

No real lipid content from garlic, no problem.

 

There is an old saying among nutritionists; the difference between a nutrient, a drug, and a toxin, is typically the dosage.

 

 

Cheers!

Edited by RD., 10 September 2013 - 03:52 AM.

[waruna]

R.D, Thank you very much for taking the time to post here, as always, much appreciated mate