72 replies to this topic

[Melee]

You quoted this below,,,

"Ammonia due to over feeding: The could of been one reason, but without feeding the fish for a week; some fish came back to perfect condition for a period of 4-5 days, with no problems, which makes me question ammonia poisoning as what i have learnt is that it permanently effects the fish so, i don't see how they could be looking healthy again, chasing each other and basically looking 'cured'.
Additionally, i feel that ammonia poisoning would have more of an effect on clown loaches and my bristle nose's and Gold spot".

I'm just correcting you on this as your incorrect.
You said after not feeding for a week some fish come back to normal,,,, (this points fingers to ammonia being the problem).

You said ammonia permanently effects fish, in a fashion of saying it permanently effects fish in any level of exposure,,,,, well that's very wrong, because most fish can handle low levels, short exposure of ammonia while some others can handle a little more within reason.

You see, some of your fish were effected more than others due to different tolerance levels, being either species differences or just straight out some having better immune systems to each other.

I'll use a horrible example to explain better,,,,,, when Hilter gased the Jews in large cells of 100 people, about 15 would survive then they'd get put into the next gassing,,, sometimes all would die, sometimes one would survive.

You see there are so many reasons that determine probability,,, to take one observation and be black and white on a decision is not a scientific approach.

After your description of outcome after not feeding. (YOUR FISH WERE AMMONIA POISONED), Over feeding, over stocking, insufficient filtration, conditions not matured enough are always most common reasons,

 

I mean if the ammonia spike would of been the cause, i don't see how they could of gone from from, terrible condition to perfect, back to terrible. if the ammonia effects them permanently

After cleaning out the tank, and all the coral sand ~ i encountered heaps of medium - short red worms. I'm guessing this would of been the cause. They must of entered the tank via the introduction of the new plant.

 

Does anyone know how to quarantine the tank from these? before i re-start? thanks.

[Frontosaman]

It was Ammonia!


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[chocky]

Can I just chime in here? Sorry I haven't properly read through but was this a newly set up tank? usually at 3 weeks for new tanks is when u get the nitrite spike. U said heavy breathing.. could It have been a result of nitrites? When u took Ur water to get tested at the fish shop it was only a week or two after? Well nitrite wouldn't have showed up as by then your filters probably finished cycling? Some fish do handle ammonia better. As an example - ranchus are often groomed with no filters. Only air stone and green algae But they perform 100% water change around 4th day. But it's really only by instinct - water gets murky, smelly, foamy etc. Not uncommon to wc at around 8 ppm Of course we are talking completely different fish but just using it as an example. Dunno just my 2 cents lol

Edited by chocky, 27 September 2015 - 01:22 PM.

[sandgroper]

Cycling has been written about many times before, i suggest they read up on it and if you don't get it read it again. If you do the wrong thing you can easily crash a tank and it has to start over again recycling. It sounds to me that this was the problem, a constant loop of tank cycling.

[Buccal]

Sandgroper may have hit the nail on the head,,, ammonia/nitrite spiking can come in and out due to tank almost completing a cycle then falling back to the beginning again creating more spikes.

If you stop feeding, then when you resume feeding start back up very lightly and gradually increase.

The worms you saw are likely black worms which are sold and used as fish food.
Most parasitic worms don't exist in numbers outside of the fish, but are inside the fish.

You Quoted
"I mean if the ammonia spike woud of been the cause, I can't see how they would have gone from terrible condition to perfect then back to terrible. If the ammonia effects them permenantly",,,

Like I said to undo this way of thinking,,, not each and every fish will be effected equally,, some fish will fall victim easier than others in the tank,,,, soooooooo, those ones that were effected the worst likely has irreversible damage and will die.
Those that faired better will make a recovery.

And as Sandgroper mentioned if your primary issues (cause of re-cycling), still continue from incorrect practices, the spikes will occur again as it begins to cycle all over again,,,,, then HAYPRESTO sick fish all over again.

[shayne]

mmm, short /medium RED worms, unlikely to be black worms i would think. Bloodworms[ gnat larvae ] or a type of " earthworm " introduced with plants perhaps.

[Buccal]

Short medium looking red worms are exactly what blackworms look like.
They happily live in substrate feeding on mulm.
I have them living on the botom of my k media filter tubs.
Doesn't take much to establish,,,,, many many years ago I use to feed thm to Ray pups,,,,, and now they exist anywhere they can.
I've known many people with blackworms in their filters and substrate.

Blood worm larvae are small and earthworms won't survive under water.

[Melee]

Short medium looking red worms are exactly what blackworms look like.
They happily live in substrate feeding on mulm.
I have them living on the botom of my k media filter tubs.
Doesn't take much to establish,,,,, many many years ago I use to feed thm to Ray pups,,,,, and now they exist anywhere they can.
I've known many people with blackworms in their filters and substrate.

Blood worm larvae are small and earthworms won't survive under water.

They were blood worms after all...

Still don't believe it was over feeding, however...

 

i've done it again. 

I set up a fresh 6foot planted aquarium, started completely fresh on September 29th. Put in a couple of bags of amazonia to fit 2" - 3" of substrate across the tank. waited a couple of weeks, planted with some basic plants and added tetras. Everything was perfect for 1 month +, i had corys, tetras, rosboras and bristlenose/plecos. No problems with the tank sitting at perfect 0 ammonia, 5 nitrates, 0 nitire, 3-4 GH + KH, pH 6.5-6.7. I then added 3 red torpedos, and 2 discus.

 

Having no problems for a week maybe two. the discus were extremely skittish at first hiding around the back and obviously stressed heavy breathing, and not eating much, if anything at all - i just put it down as stress/skittish behaviour being introduce to new environment, and other fish. 

 

Everything was looking better, the discus were coming out and saying hello, still only eating minimum. Stupidly of me i went and purchased another discus from a private well known breeder, simply went to have a look and fell in love with her. Put her in three days ago, now she is out and swimming at the front like a normal fish i would expect, while one of my previous discus died this afternoon, the other looking.... 50%, with two starbae corys dieing also.

 

Things to note:

I was preforming water changes every second week. 25%-40%

Every other fish is 100% healthy (besides the corys i guess - hard to find them)

The breeder/distributer strongly recommended treating the tank with 'worms plus' as he has experienced many times with discus coming with worms/parasites- treating every 3rd day, which seems to of helped.

The day before the discus died, i  noticed him regurgitating white stuff, looked like maybe plant mater of some sort?

One morning i woke up and all three discus were pointing nose to surface and leaning backwards, floating backwards ( that was the night i left the air stones off ), after i turned lights on they went back to hiding.

I have noticed 100% that when the light is OFF, the other discus seems to come out more often and swim around, before going back to hiding.

Feeding discus live black worms, but the new one is happy with frozen while the others are not, and neither seem to enjoy spectrum discus food.

And the other fish just fluval flakes, but going to change to spectrum.

 

I understand your busy, but any recommendations/help would be great.

Thanks

[BengaBoy]

was the initial water from another cycled mature tank?

did you start this tank with seeded media or were you starting the cycling from scratch?

[Melee]

started fresh, cycled for 2 weeks with nothing then with guppies tetras for a long time.

I can't see how it would be ammonia/nitrate problem if all are testing normal.

 

They are showing the exact signs and symptoms of the previous problem.

The tank has a 2800Lp/h filter cannister intake with sponge filter, an additional sump + power heads with attached sponge filter

Edited by Melee, 16 November 2015 - 06:17 PM.

[Melee]

Thanks for anyone reading through the context, i would create a new thread but they are extremely similar and want to find the answer.

Any suggestions would be appreciated

[Holy22]

You say you set up fresh, I am wondering are you using any items that were in the previous tank, ornaments or the like, re-using filter materials and or filters, anything that could have transferred a problem and propagated the same problem in this tank.

Are you using the same test kit if so maybe buy another, or better yet take you water to your local LFS and have it tested.

[Melee]

Using the same kit, tested it with my friends water, while she tested it with her kit, exact same results. additionally i have taken the water to the LFS for testing and tested.... as good as you would want it so to speak.

 

I have been using the same filter, sump, UV light. Additionally i dried everything out when changing to try kill any parasite, a friend has now taken them to his quarantine tank to try fix them. He is also in contact with some experienced discus breeders/ exporters who are going to have a look with him.

 

Hopefully we can figure out the problem and additionally fix my tank too.

 

Right now our highest suspect is gill flukes and they would not harm any of the other fish so to speak.

[Brett]

Not been on this forum for a while, then I read this story and it makes you want to cry. Partly for Melee who is clearly extremely frustrated, and for the three tanks full of fish.

 

I am not sure what the problem is, it could be a number of things, and before spending a lot more money on set ups and fish I think it would be wise to take some steps to find out the cause.

 

Initially the fish became ill with white marks on the body, which could be ammonia but also a host of infectious conditions, not just white spot.

A necropsy examination by a qualified person might have provided the answer and it might still be worth doing, or a gill biopsy.

I know these thinks are expensive, but what has the cost of your tanks been to date and the added anguish.

 

Forums can be good places for advice, and I am sure you have asked everywhere, but for these difficult issues I think the best option is to document a time line with as much information as possible and then take it to the most experienced person you know and work with that one person to eliminate as many possibilities as you can and then test for the rest.

 

Common things occur commonly, which is why we bang on about ammonia, we see it so often.

However the rare things do happen, and all experienced fish keepers know of episodes of toxic ornaments, accidental poisonings, miscalculation of medications, flea bombs, errant cleaning ladies that have resulted in wipe out of tanks. These things do happen, but three times in a row is starting to look like a pattern.

 

I will make some general comments

Quaranteen, Quaranteen, Quaranteen

Add fish slowly and wait, then wait some more and then a little more, 3 months between new additions would be my prefered period

Discus are not the fish for a troublesome tank that is only 6 weeks old

Cycling your tank with disease ridden live bearers is not my prefered option. It is a six foot tank so you can put in a small number of the fish you want and let them cycle the tank

 

Good luck

I hope you find the answers

 

Cheers

Brett

[Melee]

Not been on this forum for a while, then I read this story and it makes you want to cry. Partly for Melee who is clearly extremely frustrated, and for the three tanks full of fish.

 

I am not sure what the problem is, it could be a number of things, and before spending a lot more money on set ups and fish I think it would be wise to take some steps to find out the cause.

 

Initially the fish became ill with white marks on the body, which could be ammonia but also a host of infectious conditions, not just white spot.

A necropsy examination by a qualified person might have provided the answer and it might still be worth doing, or a gill biopsy.

I know these thinks are expensive, but what has the cost of your tanks been to date and the added anguish.

 

Forums can be good places for advice, and I am sure you have asked everywhere, but for these difficult issues I think the best option is to document a time line with as much information as possible and then take it to the most experienced person you know and work with that one person to eliminate as many possibilities as you can and then test for the rest.

 

Common things occur commonly, which is why we bang on about ammonia, we see it so often.

However the rare things do happen, and all experienced fish keepers know of episodes of toxic ornaments, accidental poisonings, miscalculation of medications, flea bombs, errant cleaning ladies that have resulted in wipe out of tanks. These things do happen, but three times in a row is starting to look like a pattern.

 

I will make some general comments

Quaranteen, Quaranteen, Quaranteen

Add fish slowly and wait, then wait some more and then a little more, 3 months between new additions would be my prefered period

Discus are not the fish for a troublesome tank that is only 6 weeks old

Cycling your tank with disease ridden live bearers is not my prefered option. It is a six foot tank so you can put in a small number of the fish you want and let them cycle the tank

 

Good luck

I hope you find the answers

 

Cheers

Brett

Thanks Brett, its good to hear everyones opinions and you are right. I have made many mistakes and so have many others, its part of learning and i do somewhat enjoy 'investigating' the problem, however seeing fish die is the hardest thing.

It was a clear mistake to adding discus i guess i got carried away... discus are just, amazing looking fish IMO*, and everything was just looking ace.

 

If the people i have trusted with my discus cannot find an answer and i lose these two beautiful fish, i will pay some money for a biopsy just to find the correct answer for anyone who experiences this same exact event and spends time reading posts just like i have to find somewhat of an answer. After which i will ensure i create an in-depth time-line, of my experiences so hopefully, i can save someone's fish.

 

Only time will tell this time.

And thanks again for your contribution.

[malawiman85]

In your original post you said you clean your canister monthly... you also said that you had the fish for a month with no problems at which point it started going bad.

How do you clean your filters?

[Melee]

Starting to take shape atleast

In your original post you said you clean your canister monthly... you also said that you had the fish for a month with no problems at which point it started going bad.

How do you clean your filters?

i originally did clean once a month, with previously tank water. Now i clean whenever the flow is reduced, or it starts to look dirty.

But since i started a planted aquarium, there hasn't been much of a need thus far. I have however emptied the water when my blue diamond died the other day, in case some food scraps were creating ammonia at the bottom.

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[LexAgate]

It's the wood, take it out and do a 60+% water change!

I have put this up so much, when fish are dropping off and there are almost perfect conditions the main problem is usually wood, no matter how much it has been soaked and boiled, it can still leak toxins into the water and kill all you're fish without a trace!

This problem needs more awareness it is literally 90% of the problem!

[bigjohnnofish]

your all looking far too deep for problems that simply dont exist..... tank was started on 29th september - today is november 17th - how do you expect the tank to have cycled in a little over 2 weeks... when cycling a tank from scratch your looking at 6-8 weeks to complete a good cycle with any depth... depth?  i hear you say? as in sufficient numbers of bacteria to support a good number of fish.... 

 

you wanna start a new tank - get your self 2 goldfish around 10cm (cheapies) and put em in your tank and feed them 2-3 times a day..... check ammonia daily - when the level reaches 2ppm or greater do a 50% water change.... after a few weeks of this hopefully your ammonia levels should start to reduce on their own without you water changing... when this happens you can test for nitrates now to see if your cycle is starting to establish....  when you consistantly get 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites and a good reading of nitrates you have completed a cycle.... if nitrates are over 40ppm then you can do 50% water change to reduce them... keep nitrates under 80ppm and best if they are under 40ppm - and the way to do this is simple -> water changes.... 

dont clean your filter during the cycle - only a mild clean if flow stops and do it inside the tank as you dont want to lose any bacteria that is growing.... 

 

once you have established beneficial bacteria in your filter and everything is working as it should you can slowly add more fish at the rate of 1-2 per week.... 

at this point water change once a week and test your nitrates -> ideally to keep nitrates low you may need to increase the size of your water or increase the frequency of changes.... 

 

lastly look after your bacteria and your fish will have a much better chance of living....

 

p.s. your just making all the noob mistakes that everybody does when first starting an aquarium for the first time...

[sandgroper]

Totally agree, refer back to my previous post. Everything else is secondary due to this.